Caveman
Well Known Member
There have been recent threads pertaining to MOA's, special use airspace and sharing the air with military aircraft. Last Saturday, "Cavey" (wife's pet name for the RV-7), flew the local airport manager and myself over to Vance Air force base at Enid, Ok for the civilian fly-in and safety programs. We live under and fly through the Vance MOA's and near the associated Alert areas all the time.
This was a very special trip for me and "Cavey" as he was built in memory of a cousin who died in World War II. He and his co-pilot both were awarded the Medal of Honor. There is a street at Vance AFB named after him, so in a way, this trip was a “coming home” for us.
http://picasaweb.google.com/JJSchneiders/January08Panel#5157638963481330642
http://picasaweb.google.com/JJSchneiders/January08Panel#5157639015020938210
http://picasaweb.google.com/JJSchneiders/January08Panel#5157639130985055266
We sat through several presentations on “Sharing the air”, with the military fliers. There were people there representing Altus Air force base, Fort Sill, Tinker AFB near OKC, and Sheppard AFB at Wichita Falls, Tx. F-16’s from the Tulsa Air National Guard also train in the area.
Lessons learned:
1. Vance AFB flew over 47,000 sorties during fiscal year 2009. Divide that by the fact that they don’t normally fly weekends or holidays and the number of flight hours and sorties per day is enormous.
2. Vance is the second busiest airbase in the U.S. following only Nellis AFB.
3. It is a joint use airbase with Naval, Army, and Air force training in progress.
4. Handing a T-6 Texan II to a student pilot is like handing a 5 year old a loaded 12 gauge shotgun and telling him to go play. Students are not looking for traffic and the instructor, if he is even in the airplane, is just trying not to get himself killed by the student. It is a 300 mph airplane with 1100 hp!
5. The Texan II and T-38C, and T-1 do now have traffic information in their panels. Keep your transponders on so they can see you!
6. Talk to them, please talk to them! This was stressed over and over! It is much safer for everyone. If you are not in contact, they often have to "stand down" their training while we go on our merry way oblivious to the issues we are causing.
7. They don't normally fly weekends or nights, but having said that, they do occasionally fly on Sundays and they do perform some night training.
8. VR and IR low level routes are a real issue for us out here. Our airport is at 2200 msl. They are lowering the MOA floor to 7,000 msl and they recommend crossing low level routes at 4,000 agl. That squeezes me between a rock and a hard place when trying to fly cross country and use the winds aloft in my favor.
One of the presenters was a controller from the Lawton / Fort Sill area near the Texas Oklahoma border. His presentation was an eye opener for me. I fly very near this restricted airspace a few times a year while on my way to see relatives down near Fort Worth. I know many who read these forums are from the DFW area, so please listen up.
1. GPS is a big problem for these guys. Back in the day, civilian pilots seemed to give the restricted area wide berth. Since the advent of GPS with its increased accuracy, they often fly right up to the border before turning away. This causes many, many stand downs!
2. Fort Sill is no longer just an artillery range! It is joint use. It and the surrounding airspace have much military aerial activity going on. This includes UAV's, Refueling aircraft, fighters, and ground support, such as A-10 Warthogs. There are B-1's and B-52's in use. Weaponry ranges from the M-16 rifle to Patriot missile batteries! "Bullets as big as telephone poles" was how some of the artillery was described.
3. The area around Fredrick, Oklahoma has an alert area. Many are aware of a mid air involving a spray plane a year or two ago. We were informed of a number of near misses in this area. I have personally had a B-52 pass below me while in my Cherokee, while not talking to these guys.
We watched several video's on big screens that were very impressive and drove home the point that there is serious training going on and they really would like to work with us so that we all remain safe.
4. I had a personal conversation with this gentleman before his session and I was told that they have corridors that he can and does route vfr traffic through even when the restricted area is hot! CALL HIM!
5. These restricted areas near Lawton are not only joint use, they are multinational with allies as varied as Canada and Singapore training in there.
6. Canada brings down everything from helicopters to tankers to fighters to an Airbus and they often fly NORTH of the restricted area at 7,000 to 8,000'.
We also got to participate in some fun activities. Rory took a control tower tour and I was invited to fly the T-6 Texan II simulator. I attended a sim brief and the speaker asked each of us in the room what we flew. When my turn came up and I responded with a "RV-7". There were several nice comments and the usual, "Did you build it"? As I was walking down the hall towards the sim rooms with my guide, he asked me if I performed aerobatics. When I replied, just the mild stuff like loops and aileron rolls, he said, "we'll expand on that then". Yes!
Long story short, I flew two different Texan II Sims, one was a basic sim with just a screen in front. It was similar to setting in the real airplane cockpit while flying Microsoft Flight Simulator. The second sim was more realistic. I can best describe it as being similar to attending a planetarium presentation where scenes are projected on a curved surface. It was more of a realistic presentation.
How does a Texan II fly? Well, if it is anything like the sim, it is great fun and in some ways similar to the RV. It is much heavier of course, has an 1100 hp turboprop engine and it seemed to me the elevator is more sensitive. It has a stick shaker which took me by surprise and took some getting used to.
I crashed once when I over g'd the airplane. I think they told me it was rated for 7.6 g's, (after I crashed). I did not crash any landings or other maneuvers. The sim trainer talked me through spins, (winds up very fast), loops, rolls, Immelman's, Cuban eights, split S's and military break patterns to a landing. Obviously, I was having a great time!
Here are some pics:
http://picasaweb.google.com/JJSchneiders/VanceAFBCivilianFlyIn#
Rory and I came home with a free knee board, a packet of safety information and booklets and a refreshed appreciation for our military guardians. I hope to fly smarter and safer because of what I learned. I highly recommend that you attend one of these if you ever have a chance. I guarantee you will learn some things you did not know!
BTW, on the back cover of one of the booklets we brought home is a table with aircraft speeds vs. distance and closing times. There are two columns with 600 mph and 360 mph closing speeds, and third column with distance. I won’t bore you with the details but there is a shaded area between 3 miles out with 12 seconds closing time at 600 mph and one mile out and 10 seconds at 300 mph. A foot note at the bottom states, within this shaded area – RELAX. Why die all tensed up? Let me ask you guys a question? When was the last time you picked up visual traffic at 3 miles out that was as small as a T-38? In other words, “YOU ARE DEAD”! It is impossible to see them and react in time. The only way for you to be safe from that 19 year old kid is to be talking to someone who knows he is there! WE HAVE TO TALK TO THEM!
This was a very special trip for me and "Cavey" as he was built in memory of a cousin who died in World War II. He and his co-pilot both were awarded the Medal of Honor. There is a street at Vance AFB named after him, so in a way, this trip was a “coming home” for us.
http://picasaweb.google.com/JJSchneiders/January08Panel#5157638963481330642
http://picasaweb.google.com/JJSchneiders/January08Panel#5157639015020938210
http://picasaweb.google.com/JJSchneiders/January08Panel#5157639130985055266
We sat through several presentations on “Sharing the air”, with the military fliers. There were people there representing Altus Air force base, Fort Sill, Tinker AFB near OKC, and Sheppard AFB at Wichita Falls, Tx. F-16’s from the Tulsa Air National Guard also train in the area.
Lessons learned:
1. Vance AFB flew over 47,000 sorties during fiscal year 2009. Divide that by the fact that they don’t normally fly weekends or holidays and the number of flight hours and sorties per day is enormous.
2. Vance is the second busiest airbase in the U.S. following only Nellis AFB.
3. It is a joint use airbase with Naval, Army, and Air force training in progress.
4. Handing a T-6 Texan II to a student pilot is like handing a 5 year old a loaded 12 gauge shotgun and telling him to go play. Students are not looking for traffic and the instructor, if he is even in the airplane, is just trying not to get himself killed by the student. It is a 300 mph airplane with 1100 hp!
5. The Texan II and T-38C, and T-1 do now have traffic information in their panels. Keep your transponders on so they can see you!
6. Talk to them, please talk to them! This was stressed over and over! It is much safer for everyone. If you are not in contact, they often have to "stand down" their training while we go on our merry way oblivious to the issues we are causing.
7. They don't normally fly weekends or nights, but having said that, they do occasionally fly on Sundays and they do perform some night training.
8. VR and IR low level routes are a real issue for us out here. Our airport is at 2200 msl. They are lowering the MOA floor to 7,000 msl and they recommend crossing low level routes at 4,000 agl. That squeezes me between a rock and a hard place when trying to fly cross country and use the winds aloft in my favor.
One of the presenters was a controller from the Lawton / Fort Sill area near the Texas Oklahoma border. His presentation was an eye opener for me. I fly very near this restricted airspace a few times a year while on my way to see relatives down near Fort Worth. I know many who read these forums are from the DFW area, so please listen up.
1. GPS is a big problem for these guys. Back in the day, civilian pilots seemed to give the restricted area wide berth. Since the advent of GPS with its increased accuracy, they often fly right up to the border before turning away. This causes many, many stand downs!
2. Fort Sill is no longer just an artillery range! It is joint use. It and the surrounding airspace have much military aerial activity going on. This includes UAV's, Refueling aircraft, fighters, and ground support, such as A-10 Warthogs. There are B-1's and B-52's in use. Weaponry ranges from the M-16 rifle to Patriot missile batteries! "Bullets as big as telephone poles" was how some of the artillery was described.
3. The area around Fredrick, Oklahoma has an alert area. Many are aware of a mid air involving a spray plane a year or two ago. We were informed of a number of near misses in this area. I have personally had a B-52 pass below me while in my Cherokee, while not talking to these guys.
We watched several video's on big screens that were very impressive and drove home the point that there is serious training going on and they really would like to work with us so that we all remain safe.
4. I had a personal conversation with this gentleman before his session and I was told that they have corridors that he can and does route vfr traffic through even when the restricted area is hot! CALL HIM!
5. These restricted areas near Lawton are not only joint use, they are multinational with allies as varied as Canada and Singapore training in there.
6. Canada brings down everything from helicopters to tankers to fighters to an Airbus and they often fly NORTH of the restricted area at 7,000 to 8,000'.
We also got to participate in some fun activities. Rory took a control tower tour and I was invited to fly the T-6 Texan II simulator. I attended a sim brief and the speaker asked each of us in the room what we flew. When my turn came up and I responded with a "RV-7". There were several nice comments and the usual, "Did you build it"? As I was walking down the hall towards the sim rooms with my guide, he asked me if I performed aerobatics. When I replied, just the mild stuff like loops and aileron rolls, he said, "we'll expand on that then". Yes!
Long story short, I flew two different Texan II Sims, one was a basic sim with just a screen in front. It was similar to setting in the real airplane cockpit while flying Microsoft Flight Simulator. The second sim was more realistic. I can best describe it as being similar to attending a planetarium presentation where scenes are projected on a curved surface. It was more of a realistic presentation.
How does a Texan II fly? Well, if it is anything like the sim, it is great fun and in some ways similar to the RV. It is much heavier of course, has an 1100 hp turboprop engine and it seemed to me the elevator is more sensitive. It has a stick shaker which took me by surprise and took some getting used to.
I crashed once when I over g'd the airplane. I think they told me it was rated for 7.6 g's, (after I crashed). I did not crash any landings or other maneuvers. The sim trainer talked me through spins, (winds up very fast), loops, rolls, Immelman's, Cuban eights, split S's and military break patterns to a landing. Obviously, I was having a great time!
Here are some pics:
http://picasaweb.google.com/JJSchneiders/VanceAFBCivilianFlyIn#
Rory and I came home with a free knee board, a packet of safety information and booklets and a refreshed appreciation for our military guardians. I hope to fly smarter and safer because of what I learned. I highly recommend that you attend one of these if you ever have a chance. I guarantee you will learn some things you did not know!
BTW, on the back cover of one of the booklets we brought home is a table with aircraft speeds vs. distance and closing times. There are two columns with 600 mph and 360 mph closing speeds, and third column with distance. I won’t bore you with the details but there is a shaded area between 3 miles out with 12 seconds closing time at 600 mph and one mile out and 10 seconds at 300 mph. A foot note at the bottom states, within this shaded area – RELAX. Why die all tensed up? Let me ask you guys a question? When was the last time you picked up visual traffic at 3 miles out that was as small as a T-38? In other words, “YOU ARE DEAD”! It is impossible to see them and react in time. The only way for you to be safe from that 19 year old kid is to be talking to someone who knows he is there! WE HAVE TO TALK TO THEM!
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