videobobk

videobobk

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I am the "Guinea Pig" for the new carbon fiber canopy from Gamut Services. We will be installing the first production canopy within the next week or so on our RV-9A. I have set up a page so you can follow along if you are interested. Go to http://www.missionmedia.org/RV-9A.html and click on the Canopy reference.

Basically, this is an out-of-the-box, onto the airframe canopy that is about 10 pounds lighter, stronger and with better visibility than Van's. We are hopeing for 4 hours installation time.

I am acting as factory rep while they finish production details and will have a sample forward portion at Oshkosh. I will have brochures and "Show Discount" coupons and will make arrangements so you can get them. If you aren't going to Osh, contact me. The brochures will be done a day or so after the installation is complete. This is for all 6, 7, and 9 airframes, both nose and taildraggers.

Bob Kelly, 90854
 
airman said:
Do you have an idea of what the cost is going to be?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Not totally finalized, but somewhere in the mid $3k range, with the added cost (after subtracting what you don't need from Van's) something less than $2,000. Less than $2k added seems like a good value; that's why I went for it.

Bob
 
Other advantages?

Do you anticipate any other advantages? Less time spent on building the canopy? Simpler? Easier/less complex? You mention four hours construction time...what tasks are eliminated? If this saves a substantial amount of time/aggravation in doing a slider, then I guess I'd better start setting aside my $2K! John
 
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Cool but will it fit

Bob:
Having some experience not every RV is the same. Granted with the pre-punch kits the tolerance is better, but there is always some difference, such as the wind-screen bent steel roll bar weldment. How do you adjust it to fit or is not necessary. The prototype sure looks nice. Let us know how it works out. Thanks George
 
Good questions! First, there is nothing to do except take the completed canopy out of the box, drill a few holes in the fuselage, and install everything. It epoxies in place also. The roll bar is already built in. The plexiglas is cut and bonded in place. Yes, there may be some variations in widths of completed airframes, but only in the magnitude of 1/16" here and there. I have seen gaps in aluminum canopies of over 1/4", so this is very insignificant on a well-built plane. It seals differently so this shouldn't be a factor. There are no center braces, either front or overhead. The real big difference is build time. I will know more when we have finished...

Bob Kelly
 
Wondering if you can clarify a couple of things:

It's described as completely bonding on, and also that the roll bar is "built in". What is the roll bar made of, and how does it, if at all, solidly mount to the frame of the aircraft?
I'm just wondering that if either the roll bar is not mounted to the fuse (solidly), or if it's made of just Kevlar, then how comparable would it be to protect occupants in the event of a tip over (not that that's ever happened before ;) ).

Also, I believe but am not sure that the original canopy is about $1000 of the cost of the finish kit (someone correct me if I'm wrong). So the "premium" for going with this aftermarket canopy (at a cost of $3000) would be $2000 over and above the cost of the finish kit? I'd like to have an accurate figure in order to determine if cost vs. time is a good trade off for me.
 
Highflight said:
Wondering if you can clarify a couple of things:

It's described as completely bonding on, and also that the roll bar is "built in". What is the roll bar made of, and how does it, if at all, solidly mount to the frame of the aircraft?
I'm just wondering that if either the roll bar is not mounted to the fuse (solidly), or if it's made of just Kevlar, then how comparable would it be to protect occupants in the event of a tip over (not that that's ever happened before ;) ).

Also, I believe but am not sure that the original canopy is about $1000 of the cost of the finish kit (someone correct me if I'm wrong). So the "premium" for going with this aftermarket canopy (at a cost of $3000) would be $2000 over and above the cost of the finish kit? I'd like to have an accurate figure in order to determine if cost vs. time is a good trade off for me.
Click to expand...

The roll bar is both bolted and bonded to the fuselage. It is both barbon fiber and spring steel (don't know the grade.) The post is narrower for better visibility. As to costs, the sub-$2000 added cost is firm, but the exact amount isn't. Pricing isn't fixed as there have been recent changes that haven't been figured in. You have to deduct all the canopy parts; frame, plexi, braces, skirt, roll bar, rails, latch, etc. All that is included. Time is a factor to consider, but also there should be added value to the plane.

Bob Kelly
 
canopy frame

In my experience, there is a considerable variation in the fit of the Van's canopy frame, which is built on a jig. This means that the variation is likely in the fuselage.

I know several people that have had to cut and weld the Van's frame (including me), and others where it fit perfectly.

My concern is that the carbon fiber frame may be like the Van's frame and not fit well in some instances.

It would be advisable to have a way of custom fitting the frame, or I expect there will be problems. I'd be very interested in the results of several installations. If it can be designed for a perfect fit, it will be a great product.

Vern Little RV-9A
 
vlittle said:
In my experience, there is a considerable variation in the fit of the Van's canopy frame, which is built on a jig. This means that the variation is likely in the fuselage.

I know several people that have had to cut and weld the Van's frame (including me), and others where it fit perfectly.

My concern is that the carbon fiber frame may be like the Van's frame and not fit well in some instances.

It would be advisable to have a way of custom fitting the frame, or I expect there will be problems. I'd be very interested in the results of several installations. If it can be designed for a perfect fit, it will be a great product.

Vern Little RV-9A
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Vern,

While there is considerable variation, I believe much of it is in the frame. Front and rear, there is almost no variation in how the plane turns out. Width wise, there is a small amount. The carbon fiber canopy comes a bit wide, filled with micro on the sides so this can easily be sanded to fit. There is no skirt! the seal is between the horizontal surfaces, so some variation is okay. It looks like we will be installing this coming Sunday afternoon and we will cover that in photos. I may add photos of a locally built 7 for comparison.

For those of you interested in brochures, I will be able to send them probably as early as next Tuesday when we get the installation photos in place.

Bob Kelly
 
Follow-up

Just curious, did anything ever come of this? John

videobobk said:
I am the "Guinea Pig" for the new carbon fiber canopy from Gamut Services. We will be installing the first production canopy within the next week or so on our RV-9A. I have set up a page so you can follow along if you are interested. Go to http://www.missionmedia.org/RV-9A.html and click on the Canopy reference.

Basically, this is an out-of-the-box, onto the airframe canopy that is about 10 pounds lighter, stronger and with better visibility than Van's. We are hopeing for 4 hours installation time.

I am acting as factory rep while they finish production details and will have a sample forward portion at Oshkosh. I will have brochures and "Show Discount" coupons and will make arrangements so you can get them. If you aren't going to Osh, contact me. The brochures will be done a day or so after the installation is complete. This is for all 6, 7, and 9 airframes, both nose and taildraggers.

Bob Kelly, 90854
Click to expand...
 
carbon fiber in a crash

Not to be a nay sayer...but carbon fiber parts all around your head in a crash COULD be scary. If it does break there are splinters all over the place, and the failure mode on composites is usually sudden rather then something bent like metal...just something to think about.
 
Analysis.

flyerfly said:
Not to be a nay sayer...but carbon fiber parts all around your head in a crash COULD be scary. If it does break there are splinters all over the place, and the failure mode on composites is usually sudden rather then something bent like metal...just something to think about.
Click to expand...
Good point stiff not bendable. However a little simple stress analysis could confirm that the carbon canopy is over built for the loads in a roll/flip over. So how it fails is a moot point if it does not fail. G :eek:
 
strength...

Well not knowing the x-sectional properties of this particular design I have no way of knowing. Obviously most anything can be made to take a tremendous load :) Of course the load depends alot on what the flip/roll over surface is...if you get pranged on a hard surface (like a tarmac with a pot hole in it) you will see some very high loads indeed. I'm not saying it won't work...there are plenty of planes out there with composite everything, but as an engineer I want to see all aspects of a design that protects my head ;)

Cosmetically it does look very nice!
 
Yes

I was a senior lead stress engineer for Boeing and consultant for several large aerospace companies (BF Goodrich, Airbus, British Aerospace, Airborne Express, Channel Express, P&W). I worked with composites on the B777. I can tell you it is not the cross section it is the attachment. The transition from composite to metal structure is always a pain. Mechanical fasteners in composites are tricky. However if you make the Carbon fiber lay-up thick enough bearing loads (in the carbon) is not a problem. Drilling Carbon fibers is hell. Again it can be done but requires special technique. All this can be a non-issue if they provide pre-drilled holes to full size. Bottom line if weight savings is not the goal making it strong enough is not issue.

I think in this thread they mention they want to bond and mechanically fasten, which is fine also. It was also mentioned it will be steel and composite. So if they transition to steel fittings at the fuselage interface it would be a no brainier. If the roll bar is all carbon, at the ends, large bolts need to go thru carbon and supporting metal structure. The canopy and frame is not structural with the stock parts. The Roll bar is the primary load path.

As far as stress analysis and what kind of surface there is, all you need is equivalent strength to the stock structure. However there is no guarantee this is strong enough for all conditions. It is an experimental aircraft after all. From what I have seen in a flip on soft surfaces the cockpit gets pretty low with just enough room to get out. In other cases there has been serious injuries or worse. Why? I don't know but a search of final accident reports my give insight to any shortcomings of the roll over structure. Bottom line you can only make it so strong. A key to the whole system is a tight 5 points belt system. 4 Points is not good enough. A helmet is a great idea but few if any wear them.

Cheers George
 
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