704CH

Well Known Member
Hey guys, maybe you can help? I was looking at my capacitive sender parts and noticed per the attached photo that the nylon washers need to be "deburred" for lack of a better word. They have nylon hanging off of them and I wouldn't want to put this in my fuel tank as is, for fear that the pieces would come off down the road. Any ideas how to effectivly remove this excess nylon? Anyone else have this issue?

Thanks

http://picasaweb.google.com/RV704CH/20090928#5386555098479168562
 
I would use a piece of sandpaper. If that didn't work well enough then use a razor or utility knife.
 
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Tried both, sandpaper seems to melt it and doesn't take it off very good at all. Utility knife works as you see I deburred the center or the hole.. but doesn't work well on the outside of the washer..
 
Use the knife as a scraper; the blade should be angled slightly backwards to the direction of motion. I use a razor blade or X-acto knife. Don't use sandpaper or a dirty file (a clean rat-tail does a fair job) as they tend to embed particles in the nylon; you don't want that in your tank either.
 
A better way

Hey guys, maybe you can help? I was looking at my capacitive sender parts and noticed per the attached photo that the nylon washers need to be "deburred" for lack of a better word. They have nylon hanging off of them and I wouldn't want to put this in my fuel tank as is, for fear that the pieces would come off down the road. Any ideas how to effectively remove this excess nylon? Anyone else have this issue?

Thanks

http://picasaweb.google.com/RV704CH/20090928#5386555098479168562

Chad,
This simply shows how Vans sometimes gets to "cheap" for your own good. My advice is to deposit those Nylon washers into the nearest trash can you can find. Why? Nylon is not fuel proof. In about 5 years, it will turn brown, get brittle and crack. The plates will then contact the mounting screws, which shorts out the sending unit. The spacer should be made from either Delrin or Teflon. These are the ONLY two plastics which are not affected by gasoline. The spacer should also be one piece and have the proper internal diameter. Vans washers have 1/4" ID, yet the #8 screws are only .160" diameter. That chintzy vinyl tubing is Vans way of taking up the slop. Vinyl will discolor and get brittle within 6 months of exposure to gasoline. I made my own spacers out of Delrin. I chose Delrin because it's much easier to accurately cut on a lathe.
I can supply CAD drawings of my spacers if you are interested. Contact me via email.
Charlie Kuss
 
Hi Charlie

I followed your advice some time back and made the one piece delrin washers. To help strengthen your argument, and help me publicise this subject on my own website have you got photographic evidence, or other proof, for - "In about 5 years, it (nylon washer) will turn brown, get brittle and crack."?

Regards

Bob Ellis
www.rv-8.co.uk
Fuselage inverted
 
Hi Charlie

I followed your advice some time back and made the one piece delrin washers. To help strengthen your argument, and help me publicise this subject on my own website have you got photographic evidence, or other proof, for - "In about 5 years, it (nylon washer) will turn brown, get brittle and crack."?

Regards

Bob Ellis
www.rv-8.co.uk
Fuselage inverted

I sure hope not! I really like my fuel senders. Never have I had fuel senders that were as accurate as these!

If this is true, I might as well buy two new tanks and build them up before I paint the airplane.

Darn it! :(
 
Delrin vs Nylon

Hi Charlie

I followed your advice some time back and made the one piece Delrin washers. To help strengthen your argument, and help me publicize this subject on my own website have you got photographic evidence, or other proof, for - "In about 5 years, it (nylon washer) will turn brown, get brittle and crack."?

Regards

Bob Ellis
www.rv-8.co.uk
Fuselage inverted

I've had Nylon plastic gas cans in the past. After 4 or 5 years, they discolor, get brittle and crack. At that time, I didn't take any photos. I just threw them away and purchased steel gas cans.
A quick Google search turned up the document below. Read the area marked EXTENDED AUTO FUEL STUDIES. Acetal Homopolymer is the generic name for Delrin. Delrin is part of the Acetal family of plastics. In the document below, the only plastic considered better than Delrin was PPS. PPS's advantage is that it holds up better at high temperatures [200+] Your wings won't ever see temperatures above about 140 degrees, so PPS is not needed. See

http://www.polymerplace.com/articles/auto-Fuel Resistant Plastics.htm

The washers supplied by Vans in earlier years were common hardware store grade Nylon washers, not high temp Nylon. Your washers look like they were made in China! :eek:
Considering the work & aggravation that would be involved to repair a shorted out capacitance sender, why would you want to use less than the best available materials?

I borrowed a friend's paper copy of the McMaster-Carr catalog. This catalog lists the strengths and weaknesses of various plastics. That was the start of my research into which plastic to use for the spacers.

I hope this helps
Charlie
 
Please take this as it is intended as additional information to make decisions based upon.

The washers in Van's kit are UHMW PE, NOT nylon. UHMW will swell a little when submerged in fuel and because of this will stain, but I'm not sure its mechanical properties degrade enough to worry about?

While delrin is a great product and machines superbly, I would be hesitant to declare it better than UHMW in this application until I saw enough evidence that it is undoubtedly better than UHMW. I've seen delrin fracture into pieces in this type application and think that if we are looking for something better then there are other engineered plastics out there more suitable for this application.
 
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Before everyone starts ripping out their washers a couple of items to consider. Gas cans that sit turn brittle and stain are usually red and sit outside a good part of their lives. Most of the damage is from UV light.

Most of the staining is from the auto fuels additives.

Additionally I have not before this thread seen one posting about a problem related to this issue and a lot of RVs have been flying for a long time.

I may be wrong but it does not appear to me to be a serious issue.
 
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More UHMW PE info please

Please take this as it is intended as additional information to make decisions based upon.

The washers in Van's kit are UHMW PE, NOT nylon. UHMW will swell a little when submerged in fuel and because of this will stain, but I'm not sure its mechanical properties degrade enough to worry about?

While delrin is a great product and machines superbly, I would be hesitant to declare it better than UHMW in this application until I saw enough evidence that it is undoubtedly better than UHMW. I've seen delrin fracture into pieces in this type application and think that if we are looking for something better then there are other engineered plastics out there more suitable for this application.

Brad,
Glad to hear that they aren't using Nylon. I got my kit many years ago. Are they still supplying import BNC bulkhead connectors? I did a quick Google search on UHMW Polyethylene. It appears that it has good resistance to gasoline. Could you direct me to a more definitive site regarding it's chemical properties?
In the link I provided in my post above, I noted that none of this company's auto manufacturing clients was interested in considering using UHMW PE for fuel system parts. Excerpt from that link below

Ticona began the study by asking its auto OEM and Tier I fuel system customers what fuels and plastics they wanted to see studied. They chose seven plastics: acetal copolymer, acetal homopolymer, PPS, PBT, aliphatic polyketone, nylon 6/6, and high-temperature nylon (HTN).

I didn't mean to alarm anyone into thinking that they should immediately remove their capacitance spacers. If they are already installed, don't fix what isn't broke. I "certainly" would not go to the trouble of building new fuel tanks. Future repair access can be had by removing the tanks and cutting access holes as needed in the rear baffle ( if you have a problem in the future).
I have another question for you guys. Does Van now make the spacers out of one piece? When I got my kit, you had to stack three 1/8" thick washers together to create the spacer. This is NOT what I would consider good engineering practice (my opinion). Beyond that, the washers I received had a 1/4" inside diameter. This required the insertion of a piece of soft vinyl tubing into the washers to take up the "slack" between the 1/4" ID of the washers and the .160" diameter of the #8 mounting screws. Has the design changed in the ensuing years?
I admit that there is a low probability of the sender plate mounting screws loosening up in their nut plates. That said, I have no faith in that .040" thick vinyl tubing being able to insulate the knife edge of the sender plate from the mounting screw for very long IF the screw was to loosen. If the any part of the sender plate contacts any other metal part of the fuel tank [such as the mounting screw], your very accurate fuel gauge will no longer work.
I would also like to hear your views as to the short comings of Delrin {aka Acetal Homopolymer} in this application. It's been used in automotive fuel systems with great success for over 15 years. I like to learn as much as the next lister.
Charlie Kuss
FYI, the link I provided considered that PPS was the best choice, regarding chemical resistance. However, it is very expensive. Also, it's superiority is that it holds up much better at temperatures above 200+ degrees. This is well above the expected maximum temperatures you might see in an RV wing [ 140 degrees ]
 
somebody know what is the 1/4 plastic tube material? what is the best plastic tube available to replace the existent?