[Brantel]

How crazy would a guy be to sell his awesome RV7 just so he could build a RV12 and reduce his fixed and operational cost of owning/flying an airplane as well as relieve the stress and anxiety of renewing his special issuance medical each year?

 

[rvator51]

I suspect that many guys have already gone "crazy". An alternative to going crazy might be to wait and see if the 2nd phase of the Pilots Bill of Rights gets passed as regards 3rd class flight physicals.

 

[comfortcat]

Maybe a bit crazy, but...

Hmmm..

How would this lower:

1. Fixed costs
* Are you planning on keeping this outside instead of a hanger? Maybe trailer it home every time?
* is insurance cheaper?
* maintenance costs at annual? You have the repairman's cert, right? and you can run automotive plugs in the plane. Are Rotax parts cheaper?

2. Operational costs
* You can run Mogas in the RV-7
* To save gas, fly your 7 as a slow as a 12 (throttle back)
* Oil changes for the Rotax might be a bit cheaper
* Fees for radio subscriptions, landing fees, are a wash.

My guess is that except for the Class3 medical. You would not gain much in the trade.

CC

 

[Brantel]

Hmmm..

How would this lower:

1. Fixed costs
* Are you planning on keeping this outside instead of a hanger? Maybe trailer it home every time?

Yep, trailer it home or share a corner somewhere cutting anywhere from $2700 - $5400 annually out of the fixed cost. (New FBO contract, rumors are that rent is likely to double)

* is insurance cheaper?

Nope about a wash...

* maintenance costs at annual? You have the repairman's cert, right? and you can run automotive plugs in the plane. Are Rotax parts cheaper?

Yep have the card for the 7. I doubt Rotax part are cheaper but with a brand new engine with warranty at least I would get a few years of less cost.

2. Operational costs
* You can run Mogas in the RV-7

Some people do but I would not feel comfortable doing that without changing up the fuel system.

* To save gas, fly your 7 as a slow as a 12 (throttle back)

I do that most of the time now...when just buzzing around. Trips are a different matter however. I usually am WOT.

* Oil changes for the Rotax might be a bit cheaper

Undunno???

* Fees for radio subscriptions, landing fees, are a wash.

My guess is that except for the Class3 medical. You would not gain much in the trade.

This is a big part of the benefit however.

CC

Not saying I am committed to doing this, just musing the idea and rolling it around in the old pumpkin.

 

[DaleB]

If your trips are done WOT, would you be happy taking that much longer to get where you're going?

I don't even HAVE a medical, SI or no. I still made the decision to keep soldiering on with my 7 and roll the dice on the medical certification requirements changing by the time I'm done. I just couldn't see spending as much as my 7 will cost, to fly a 120 knot airplane day VFR only -- no matter how nice it is.

I also don't make my decisions based on resale value, but in this case it did become a factor for me. Right now it seems that completed, flying 12s are not commanding a very high price over what one would cost to build. I suspect that gap will narrow sharply or even go a little negative if the OF&C Brigade is able to keep flying their non LSA compliant airplanes without a medical. I don't think $30K for a Champ would be a very smart investment right now either.

I could be badly, tragically wrong on all of this. It matters not one bit, though, in your case -- you have your own set of criteria. So no, I wouldn't say you're crazy. Everybody's got different priorities and requirements.

 

[boom3]

Think of the money you could save just in panel upgrades.
Says the envious one with the outdated panel...

Seriously though on the medical front it's a worthwhile consideration. You never really know what life's going to throw at you.

 

[Brantel]

If your trips are done WOT, would you be happy taking that much longer to get where you're going? ---snip--- OF&C Brigade is able to keep flying their non LSA compliant airplanes without a medical. ---snip---

Don't know on the speed. I love to fly but I also like to go fast. I go WOT on trips just because the plane can go fast. Not saying I would not enjoy some low and slow as well....

What is the OF&C Brigade? I am out of the loop on that one...

 

[Tooch]

Trailering

People buy these trailerable or folding wing planes with the idea that they will just take them home after a flight. Most never end up doing that or just don't fly as much. I had a friend with a Glastar with folding wings. He kept it at an airport in a hanger with the wings unfolded. It is great that the wings in a 12 come off easy but I would bet that there very few if any owners of 12's that trailer their planes to the airport every time they want to go flying. I may be wrong. Maybe some 12 owners could chime in on this.

 

[TomVal]

How crazy would a guy be to sell his awesome RV7 just so he could build a RV12 and reduce his fixed and operational cost of owning/flying an airplane as well as relieve the stress and anxiety of renewing his special issuance medical each year?

Brantel,

My 2 cents...

I believe you are a bit younger than me (my guess by at least 25 years). Think about how you plan to use your aircraft for the next 25+ years. As previously suggested, wait until we get a final ruling on the 3rd class medical issue then make your decision.

The -12 is a significant cutback in performance, perhaps slightly less expensive to operate, and trailering to and from the airdrome will eventually become a tedious chore plus most likely a two man job.

Best of luck in your decision.

Regards,

 

[rv7boy]

I can't believe you're having these thoughts either.

<SNIP>What is the OF&C Brigade? I am out of the loop on that one...

I don't know either, but I suspect "OF&C" starts with "Old Farts..."

 

[FORANE]

You are currently based in KMOR, correct?
I fly into there annually to visit JB.
If one of your concerns is the local cost of the field, and I make a point of not fueling there for that reason, what about using a different field? From Newport you have to drive a ways anyway. What about KGKT; is that an option or is it as bad or worse? KGCY?

 

[drill_and_buck]

"...Yep, trailer it home or share a corner somewhere cutting anywhere from $2700 - $5400 annually out of the fixed cost. (New FBO contract, rumors are that rent is likely to double).."

Keep in mind that removing/installing the wings are a two person operation. How often do you fly solo?

 

[Brantel]

You are currently based in KMOR, correct?
I fly into there annually to visit JB.
If one of your concerns is the local cost of the field, and I make a point of not fueling there for that reason, what about using a different field? From Newport you have to drive a ways anyway. What about KGKT; is that an option or is it as bad or worse? KGCY?

KMOR is the closest field that has any hangar space available. I have not bought much fuel to speak of at KMOR for years due to the high cost. I either go 0VG, DKX or 3A2.

KGKT has limited hangar space that is not tied up in owner leases.

There is a rumor that KGCY is building more but I don't know if it is true yet.

Those are the two options that are similar distances from my home. The other options are just too far away to be practical.

By the way, JB almost got booted out by the new FBO contract holder. Somehow they managed to work out a deal but the tension is high and I am not sure how long that will last... JB got hit by a huge increase in rent as well.

 

[Brantel]

"...Yep, trailer it home or share a corner somewhere cutting anywhere from $2700 - $5400 annually out of the fixed cost. (New FBO contract, rumors are that rent is likely to double).."

Keep in mind that removing/installing the wings are a two person operation. How often do you fly solo?

Most of the time but there is almost always someone around that would be able to help. I bet if one tried hard enough, they could come up with some sort of dolly to make it possible for one man to do it.

How do the glider guys do it?

 

[jimgreen]

Any possibility of taking on a partner to reduce costs?
Not an easy thing to do, but I can't think of a more effective way of reducing fixed costs.

 

[DaleB]

What is the OF&C Brigade?

Old farts & cripples.

(I guess I fall into both camps.)

 

[DeltaRomeo]

My 1-data point advice would be to consider turning $22K into an old, stock J3 Cub, and keep the RV-7 for high performance missions (what I paid for a '46 J3C-65). A stock Cub is grandfathered LSA and about $20/hr to fly. $700/yr to insure. Friends will come out of the woodwork to ‘help’ you fly it – some will be A&Ps and will trade annuals for time. Several friends will extend to you a standing offer to buy it when you tire of it, just let them know when to write the check. Some will offer to let you store it in their hangar for time. It will end up costing you about as much as an old motorcycle. And, the doors come off for those hot TN afternoons...<g>

At least that's been my experience...

I can't see that an RV-12 will be as cheap to fly as an old Cub, and I'm guessing you're spoiled with that speedy -7. You could do this for a few years and see where the health goes.

 

[humptybump]

Brian, you could always go to the dark side and build an SLA Panther

 

[rv7boy]

Old farts & cripples.

(I guess I fall into both camps.)

AHA! I guessed the first part correctly! When you get my age, you have a better appreciation of "OF&C."

 

[rgmwa]

I bet if one tried hard enough, they could come up with some sort of dolly to make it possible for one man to do it.

It's already been done (check the RV-12 forum), although two people will make the job quicker and easier. Haven't heard of any forumites trailering the -12 from home on a regular basis. Maybe some do but it would be a very small number. However, with the wings off and in a cradle, the -12 could be comfortably stored in a 12'x24' area.

 

[Jrskygod]

One note - If you are already special issuance then you cannot just fly LSA with your drivers license.

 

[BSwayze]

Brian, I'm going to show you how to cut your hanger rent in half. I wish I could take credit for this, but a friend of mine has done this here in our area. I like this idea so much, I'm going to steal it from him.

He has a simple T-hanger, but they found a way to fit two RV's inside.

You can see the ingenious ramp that he built on the left side of the hanger. He has an electric winch in the back that he hooks up to the nosewheel. It has a long cord with a remote on it, so he can hang onto the tow bar on the wheel to steer it as the winch pulls his RV up the ramp. I'm sure there's a way to figure this out for a tailwheel RV. As his plane goes up the ramp, his wing just misses the wing of his friends RV, and ends up on top of it as you see below.

Also, as you can see above, the ramps extend out over the steel rails for the doors. The last foot or so is on a hinge, and he just flips it up 180? when he's finished so the rails are clear and he can pull the door shut. Here's another picture, showing a close-up of how the wings "stack up". There's plenty of clearance by the time he's all the way inside.

The beauty of this whole arrangement is that either one of them can pull his airplane out, independent of the other, without disturbing his partner or having to move one plane to get the other one out. And for each of them, the hanger rent is cut in HALF. What's not to like?

Here he is, lowering his plane down the ramp. It's so easy.

I had no trouble walking around in his hanger with both airplanes inside. He's been doing this for a number of years, and he told me he has saved over $15,000 in hanger rent! It shouldn't be hard to find a good partner, especially if hangers are scarce or if there's a waiting list.

Hope this helps you keep your RV!

 

[dmaib]

One note - If you are already special issuance then you cannot just fly LSA with your drivers license.

I don't believe that is correct. There have been lots of questions about that issue and the FAA issued a statement clarifying it quite some time ago.

 

[Brantel]

One note - If you are already special issuance then you cannot just fly LSA with your drivers license.

Fairly certain this not correct....

This has already been addressed and the response is right on the FAA Aeromedical website:

 

[ifixf15]

Portable RV-12 Hangar

There has been at least one builder who has cracked the RV-12 trailer nut.

http://s1286.photobucket.com/user/hemlockfield/library/

 

[f1rocket]

Been There

I've been on both sides of this one, so here's my $.02 for what it's worth.

I can't imagine trailering the -12 each time I fly it. Yes, the wings come off relatively easily but I do not look forward to doing it very often. I suppose you could trailer it but I bet it would get very old very quickly.

The whole speed thing is overrated. I went from a F1 Rocket to a -12. On a typical 200 nm trip, the -7 will get there 25 minutes faster but burn more fuel. For me, it's not that big of a deal.

I agree that if the 3rd class medical thing gets lifted, that changes the whole ballgame. I would at least wait that one out.

It costs me much less to maintain and operate the -12 than the other airplanes I've owned, primarily the fuel and insurance costs.

The -12 is really underrated as a quality airplane because of its speedier brethren. It is very fun to fly, is very spacious, it's easy to land because of the slower speeds and still looks great. I absolutely love mine and would take it over almost anything (other than another Rocket).

The arguments on value are not accurate IMO. When I go to sell mine some day, I will make just as much on the sale of the -12 as I have on my previous airplanes. With Van's selling the base model at $115K, that sets the bar pretty high and a nice -12 selling under that price leaves plenty of room for profit.

In the end, it's really what ever you want to do. I think your overall operating expenses will be less, but probably not enough to make a significant dent in the cost of your hobby. Flying is expensive as we all know. Sometimes, we all get a little tired of putting out that kind of cash, but for me, I always come back to it. The -12 has allowed me to stay involved a little more economically, but with a great deal of fun.

 

[David-aviator]

Finding money to fly and staying healthy enough to do it is a matter of priorities.

I love to fly.

To help pay for it, I drive a Honda Pilot with over 200,000 miles on the odometer and probably will die nearly broke, what good is money if you can not do what is important.

To stay healthy, I get up at 5 am and walk - sometimes an hour. Loosing 10 pounds or more will drop blood pressure, improve overall vascular condition, and overall mental attitude about life. It is so easy to gain and carry extra weight, it is so difficult to get rid of it. But getting rid of years of extra weight and getting back to high school weight does make a difference - a huge difference. (not there yet but working on it) We Americans are over fed, under worked physically, and live the easiest life on the planet. Its no wonder the obesity factor is so embarrassing.

I like flying the RV models that require a medical certificate. If my health goes south to where it is getting by on the drivers license and flying a LSA, I may just hang it up. LSA flying I suppose is better than no flying, but not by much and airplanes like the RV-12 are not cheap to build and own.

 

[pierre smith]

Brian, you're not the only one mulling this over. I have a hangar but seldom have more than just me in my-10.

Best,

 

[bhassel]

When it came time to bite the bullet I was looking at a late 50's/early 60's model 172. They are priced between $20k and $30k. But the idea of not being able to do my own maintenance meant increased unknown costs to my yearly budget. The 12 flies as fast as a 172 and I hear is a lot more fun to fly. I have a 9 emp in the office, should I just finish that? I also thought about a mid approach by just purchasing a flying RV-6. They're great planes!

My wife preferred the idea of having everything new - darn. So the 172 was out, as well as a used RV-6.

For me the 12 build, leading me by the hand was a huge enticement to building it. Everything laid out, great plans, fast to build, state of the art with all the hard parts already figured out; what more could I ask? This made the 9 take a reluctant back seat.

Getting older is no fun, some things just can't be mitigated! So the LSA/drivers license medical appealed to me. However, I struggled with the speed issue for a long time. Of course I was only hanger flying, since I hadn't really flown in years...make that decades. My skills aren't up to the speed in my mind...yet. I gave up riding motorcycles when I realized that my reflexes just weren't what they used to be. I hated to admit that. There was always a thrill about laying a bike over in a corner and knowing that just a hair more and you'd bite the bullet; just a hair, riding the edge. What a thrill! Sure I could slow down, but I was always taken by - just a hair more...

Hanger fees are $450/month on a month to month contract that will likely increase with the new FBO taking over. Not going there unless I win the lottery. I live fairly close to the airport (probably 5 miles or so), but I don't really plan on trailering every time I want to fly. I never learned how to back up a trailer (it's like eating eel; never have, never will - just not my cup of tea). So I'll, bring her home during the bad weather season and for maintenance. The rest of the time she'll be covered with Bruce covers and parked on the line for $40/month in a secure area.

While building and attending chapter meetings I'm finding that a lot of folks aren't flying as much because of the fuel costs. Those that know about the Rotax look longingly my way. So a brand new engine that when treated well doesn't require top ends half way through TBO or much else (I know many Lyc's do not) sounds really good. At least that's what I'm hearing from folks that have supported the engine. The more I can make my costs, known costs the easier it will be on my budget.

So a new engine, state of the art panel, ADSB, autopilot, RV handling at a speed that matches my skills (comfortable - yet reasonable), lower fuel costs and great factory support are all pluses for me. Add the fact that it's an evolving design that keeps getting better and you have a winner.

I'm happy with my decision to go with the 12, even if the drivers license medical gets expanded. I'll have an operating cost that's much more affordable. Sure you can fly a lyc slower and get the costs down, but will they be as affordable as a modern design engine like the Rotax? I have no idea, but I am starting at a good point.

I just can't wait to go flying!

Bob

 

[diamond]

I deliberated this issue for longer than I'll ever admit. In the end what tipped the scales for me was seeing and comparing both planes sitting side by side at SnF this year.

 

[joertexas]

One note - If you are already special issuance then you cannot just fly LSA with your drivers license.

That is correct. [From the context of this post, it appears there is a typo here. We are waiting for the OP to respond to Brantel's comment below, but in the meantime, it seems the sentence should read "That is incorrect." - one of the moderators]

Response: My intent here is to say: if you have a current medical - whether it's special issuance or not - you can't fly under medical self-certification. You must let the medical "time out", and then you can self-certify. Now, that was my understanding in my conversation with the FAA as detailed below...

I did ask this question of a technician in the FAA Aeromedical Branch in OKC: "Once I have the special issuance medical, can I simply let it lapse when my third class medical renewal comes around, and then fly as a Sport Pilot under medical self-certification?"

Their answer: Yes.

FWIW...

 

[Brantel]

Joseph it looks like there is a typo in your post...

 

[N941WR]

Brian,

You are not alone. I can't tell you how many times I have thought about selling my -9.

Only I want a Highlander Super STOL to replace it but what I really need is an RV-10, so I guess I'll keep the -9.

 

[rzbill]

SPEED

Hmm.
On the recent holiday flight, I was doing 190Kt across the ground and at the same time doin' the 'scooch' in the seat urging the machine to go faster. RV 12 would have been 90 minutes slower plus a fuel stop and it would not have handled the weather (via altitude) as easily.

The 12 cost is attractive but gosh I don't know if I could go back to the spamcan speeds until forced. Dragged screaming I guess.

 

[mike newall]

Or.......

Put a group of 3 others around your 7 - you retain 25%.

Build the 12 with a partner.

Now you have the best of both because you can fly the 7 'with a partner' if you don't retain your full medical while flying the 12 on the restricted.

Complicated but very sociable

The 12 is really sweet to fly - I did the testing on one a couple of years ago and was so impressed we are building 2 as a revenue exercise after the 8 is done. Should help the finances on the 14.

 

[rgmwa]

The 12 is really sweet to fly - I did the testing on one a couple of years ago and was so impressed we are building 2 as a revenue exercise after the 8 is done. Should help the finances on the 14.

You're actually going to make money doing this even after freight, taxes and UK exchange rates? Wow!

 

[Snowflake]

How do the glider guys do it?

Glider ops are an entity unto themselves. Gliders require a towplane to launch, ground crew to set up for takeoff, capture after landing, etc. The glider clubs i've seen have rigorous procedures for rigging and de-rigging gliders, to ensure that nobody misses any critical connections when putting the wings on.

Personally, I wouldn't want to have to connect and disconnect my wings after every flight, even if it was a lot easier than it would be on my -6... Nor would I want to rely on finding random people every time I wanted to fly.

The overriding concern i'd have with a -12 over any of the other two-place RV's is that personally, I find them very unattractive.

 

[David-aviator]

Glider ops are an entity unto themselves. Gliders require a towplane to launch, ground crew to set up for takeoff, capture after landing, etc. The glider clubs i've seen have rigorous procedures for rigging and de-rigging gliders, to ensure that nobody misses any critical connections when putting the wings on.

Personally, I wouldn't want to have to connect and disconnect my wings after every flight, even if it was a lot easier than it would be on my -6... Nor would I want to rely on finding random people every time I wanted to fly.

The overriding concern i'd have with a -12 over any of the other two-place RV's is that personally, I find them very unattractive.

Pilots who have to move an airplane to an airport and return to fly end up not flying very much. That's not good.

What's interesting around here are pilots who have hangars, sell there airplanes and store their boats and other toys in their hangars - the flip side of the story.

 

[N941WR]

...
What's interesting around here are pilots who have hangars, sell there airplanes and store their boats and other toys in their hangars - the flip side of the story.

That problem is easy to solve. These hangar squatters are not buying fuel and other airport services so, have airport management add a clause to the rental contact that requires airplane storage.

Those clauses are fairly common.

 

[Snowflake]

That problem is easy to solve. These hangar squatters are not buying fuel and other airport services so, have airport management add a clause to the rental contact that requires airplane storage.

People who want cheap (ish) storage are crafty enough to work around that too. There are lots of junk airplanes and airplane parts around that take up relatively little space in the corner when you only need to meet the wording of a contract.

There are far too many hangars at my home airport that are full of junk. The few i've been privy to see inside all have airplane parts somewhere... Maybe they used to be pilots/owners, or maybe they're just meeting the requirement of their rental contract too.