aarvig

aarvig

Well Known Member
I am 34 years old, have 3 kids, six figure student loans, a mortgage and a 5 year old business. I recently started working on my private pilot license and am about to solo. Well, much to the chagrin of my wife the flying bug bit me again, harder than ever before. (I think I have a disease :D) Because of this, the desire to build a plane has had me researching everything from a Sonex to the RV. Of course, my dream plane is an RV-7A. My plan would be to build the RV as "affordably" as possible. Basic day/night VFR panel, fixed pitch prop, no paint for now, and an overhauled O/IO-360. Hoping to come in around $55k. Financially, I can do this over about 7-10 years with my current income which I hope will go up but I am considering it to remain the same for the purposes of this financial exercise. If my income goes up, the time to build comes down. So after the excitement of considering the build wore off I realized I have to afford to operate this thing. YIKES. So I was hoping I could get some information on how much annual operating costs for an RV were as well as some of your stories as to how you managed to pay for the build and pay to fly the finished product so I can determine if the RV is the right plane for my situation.
The other option I considered was to build a Sonex with a 3300 Jabiru engine and fly it till I could afford to build and fly the RV. But, the Sonex just isn't even close to an RV. Its not really what I want but I know that right now I can afford to build and fly one. All these difficult decisions! :confused: Bottom line, I need to know if I can afford it and keep my family together and happy at the same time. Thanks ahead for all your advice.
 
What is you appetite

for financial risk?

Purely my personal position but...Airplanes are toys and should be funded like any other toy..I.e paid for with cash that you have..and if you have any loans or a mortgage these should be paid off first before buying airplanes.

Then again my tolerance for risk is very low..Looking as how I fully expect to lose my job this year but can keep the roof over my head because I own said roof well then I'm not feeling too stressed.

But even then I expect to sell my IFR 7a or pull the wings off and bring it home to wait out the depression.

If I were in your position there is no way I'd be thinking of building an airplane..Whats more if you wait I bet you'll be able to buy one complete for less than what it would cost you to build it.

Now I will never be a rich man..Entrepraneurs but their very attitude have a greater tolerance for risk..Now and again these people become very wealthy.

You have to speculate to accumulate...Even as a professional Engineer I expect to die poor..:)

Frank
 
I don't totally agree with Frank. I have a home equity loan that pays for about 50% (the other 50% was cash). I'm currently an unemployed engineer and I still am happy with my decision. To me, the airplane is more than just a toy, it is a dream. I can just imagine a conversation with me and a friend that goes something like this:

Friend: "So did you start building your airplane yet?"
Me: "Nope, I don't have enough cash to pay for all of it and I don't want to borrow any money, so I'm going to give up on my dreams and watch TV every night instead."

That was a scenario that I wanted to avoid. Now that I'm almost done with my plane, I don't regret it at all, even though I'm out of work.

It sounds like you have a good handle on the costs, it is up to you weather it is worth the risk, time, money, commitment, frustration, joy, and fun to build your own aircraft.
 
I am with Frankh. Think of your family first, support your growing family. Get out of debt. Then buy your toys. IMHO
 
Sorry nope

Sorry nope, you can't afford it now for two reasons: 1) money and 2) family time. Every week you'll be off at the hardware store, or on-line buying something and you can't worry about the money. It will cost $60k or more before its done. And also because you need to spend time with the kids doing stuff, not in the garage messing with pro-seal. You'll lose your head in this RV project instead of thinking and playing with your family. At best you'll get started, then distracted, and 20 years later you'll still be working on it or worse, you might be wishing you spent more time going to kids sports games, camping, and playing with them.

Go buy a Piper Cherokee for $25,000 now and fly the heck out of it. Teach your kids to fly it. Take them on vactions in it. Get your wife excited about airplanes by taking her shopping in far off towns with airports. You'll learn tons of stuff. After your college is paid off and the kids' college is funded then build an RV. You'll have more money, more time, and more supportive family. And there is no rush. Vans will be here and the avionics will be even better in 15 years.

Good luck
 
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Do It Regardless Life is Short

Go for it! When my health nut mom died suddenly of cancer I suddenly realized that I needed an RV sooner rather than later. I took my house money and got a plane. Considering what real estate has done since 2006, I think I did ok!

Consider buying one that is already flying. No it isn't quite the same, but you are flying from day one, and it will likely actually cost less, and definitely take up a lot less family time. You can build your dream machine slowly while you fly what you have. An RV-4 or RV-6 are both great planes and undervalued in the market, the market skews towards the new... I mean people spend 40K on a truck, for the same or a little more you can have an airplane...

Hans
(My truck was built in 1973):)
 
Its alot of money and commitment of time on a toy/hobby.

Personally I wish I had build the LongEZ 30 odd years ago when I bought the plans. But in some way because I didn't my house is now paid off, and the kids are financially through school, and I am now comfortable to get started on an RV.

In your position, I would accept the situation of limited resources for the time being and find a cheaper way to fulfill my desire to fly......

.... but if someone had even given me a sniff of possiblity that LongEZ would be nearing its 20th birthday now......sigh!!!!!
 
Go for it! As is said, life is short, live it before you die. If you wait 30 years to pay off your mortgage before you can pursue a dream, you will be frustrated internally which can be worse for you and your family in the long term. Not saying that everyone should pursue a dream without regard to their families, however this is a reasonable pursuit that should not affect too much your family life.

$60K over 10 years is $6K per year. I know many people who spend more than this in not as productive pastimes that have nothing to show for it after 10 years. An airplane project is an outlet at home. Airplane construction will keep you home with the family and as the kids get older, it can become a family affair.

Everyone should have an outlet. If your outlet is at home as opposed to say the golf course, or the bowling alley, it is much better for the family. The Vans kits have a good formula because they allow you to "pay as you go" for a large portion of the project. Only as you get toward the end do you have to make the big investments.
 
Wife + kids + job + RV = time problems for most. Some people are excellent time managers. For those that might not apply.

Mortgage + other loans + Wife + kids + RV = money problems for most. Some people are excellent money managers. For those that might not apply.

If you score high on both = build.

Low on time/high on money = buy already built, finance it!

Low on both = bag it.

High on time/low on money = flip a coin. Heads, build pay as you go. Tails, bag it.
 
I am 33 with 3 kids

and I am building a RV-10 just fine. My kids love to be out in the garage and "help" (really just watch, although they do love dimpling the skins). If nothing else I am in the garage with the door open while they run around outside with their friends and I can keep an eye on them. I have a mortgage but that is my only dept and I am paying cash for all of my plane.

I chose to build the plane because it was my dream and I want to live it now and be able to take those long weekend trips with my family (I am putting a bench seat in the back to hold my 3 girls). I will not tell you to do it or not because everyone has a different situation, but I am happy I did it and my girls think it is really cool.
 
?

six figure student loans? and a family? and you want to get a $50,000 +/- toy? no way. that is unwise.
 
Well, there's quite a diverse set of advice posted already. I'm sure they've all helped you to make the right decision.:rolleyes:

As you've probably figured out, you'll have to ultimately decide. I have always lived my life using two pieces of advice. One, tomorrow is promised to no one. Two, live your dreams. I am also fortunate to have a spouse who looks at life the same way. We have completely and thoroughly enjoyed every aspect of our lives together, including aviation.

What drives you? Ultimately, that's where you'll find your answer.
 
f1rocket said:
...What drives you? Ultimately, that's where you'll find your answer.
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Great quote, Randy!

I also couldn't afford it when I started (at age 31 w/two kids). Looking back, our kids say they can't imagine their life without an airplane in the family. At least in our family, it's been a net positive experience - lots of quality time at home piddling around the shop. Lots of trips to the airport on Saturdays, etc.

Things I didn't have on the spreadsheet when dreaming all this up.
 
You dont have to buy it all at once,we started with the tail kit like everyone else,learned alot building it and we bought the next kit each additional year,the actual airplane didnt get expensive until the last year when we bought avionics and overhauled the engine,take your time and enjoy the journey and the friendshipes you will make.It helps to have a supportive family also,how does your wife feel about you building? would she be willing to help any?are the kids old enough to help any?I was lucky,my wife would get on my butt if I wasnt out there working on her airplane,and we did enjoy building it together.
 
asav8tor said it

You will have to be a great time manager to accomplish this. You or you wifes money managing skills will have to be pretty good too. The building period of 7 to 10 years is quite a while, especially for somebody who doesn't have their pilots license yet. I only say this due to the fact that you will be spending money on the project that you probably would have on rental fees to keep flying skills up, so it sounds like you would get your license and then give up flying for 7 to 10 years. Is this possible, Absolutely. There are a couple of things working for you. If you take that long to build, and if you don't get in a hurry to buy whatever it is you need to buy, you will almost certainly be able to get bargins along the way. Which = more money free'd up for other things. You will also be able to incorperate the build into time with your kids or maybe your wife. Not all family time is done in the living room I am sure. One other thing, I wouldn't do it if my spouse wasn't fully on board with you, PERIOD!
 
Calvin25 said:
You only live once, just get it done.
Click to expand...

That's the only way to live. I don't want to get old and wish I had done something.

I think financing some things in life is O.K as long as you can't get upside-down on anything. AKA, finance less than half the initial value.
 
Afford?

Do you really want to BUILD for 7 years?
Do you want to FLY for the next 7 years?

Do not build to fly.
Build, because you WANT! to build a plane.
Want to fly?
Cessna 172s start around $25,000
Cessna 150s start around $15,000
Figure what motivates you and go there,,,,,, build or buy.
 
One more word on financing...

Just another thought on financing the plane as there are different opinions here. As others have stated, the first 1/2 - 3/4 of the project isn't the most expensive part. Remember that if you come upon hard times financially, you can always sell off the project and the tools. Maybe you won't get back everything you put into it, but it will be close. This takes away much of the financial risk.

I'm single with no kids, but I've seen many families get very involved and excited about the project. There are some families that are not as supportive. Your decision will depend a lot on how your family feels about it.
 
Another country heard from. When I started, I had no idea where the money would come from. During the build, we accumulated the 6 digit debt, but we expected Judith's income to take care of that and mine to pay for the plane. As it turned out, I became a student again, so Judith has been paying for everything except for what my Mom's estate paid. The student loans are just about gone, I've managed to sneak in a $32k custom motorcycle, and the budget on the -6A bloated from around your figure to just under $100k. It looks like I will graduate next year, which should allow us to pay off the mortgage and remainder of the student loans in about 3 years while I pay for my RV-10 build. I started in 1994; if I had waited until now to start, I would not be flying yet. If I waited until we had the money free and clear, I would not be starting for a couple of years yet.

Only you can say how much confidence you have in your financial plan. Assuming that your figures are conservative and that you are willing to make the hard choices if your situation changes, my advice is this: get started. Do not finance any part of your kit if you can avoid it but buy what you can when you can. Financing to beat inflation is, IMHO, a zero-sum game. As you save your money, invest it or at least let it earn interest. That way your savings are bolstered (your financial adviser will like that) which gives you better protection should something come up. Meanwhile, each item that you buy is real property. I bought a kit and then spread out the building until the anticipated time I could buy the next one. Meanwhile, I kept my interest up by doing at least small jobs on the project all the time.

Regarding changing circumstances: I had to store the project after the wings were done because we had no place large enough to build a fuselage. That was four of the longest years but I kept saving for the build and anticipating the time I could resume. This time around, I have already ordered the tail and wing and am saving for the fuselage but I don't expect to begin construction until I 1) graduate and 2) restore my father's '65 Chevy PU. The truck and finish work on the -6A will keep me busy this year and I'm sure I'll play around a bit with the tail kit. Until I graduate and get back to work, I can't afford much more than that anyway; the price of the kit is tiny in relation to the price for engine and (hopefully) a glass panel and comfy interior. There could be setbacks but I really don't expect this RV to take 15 years.

Another thought: someone mentioned build or fly. Personally, I love working with my hands. Yes, I like flying but not so much that I expect I will put more than a couple of hours a week on the aircraft on average. On the other hand, I can spend great amounts of time fabricating parts, etc. So, for me, the choice is simple. But if building is really not your thing and flying is your goal, I'd say save your money until you can buy a completed aircraft. Again, I'm not a huge fan of financing but if the financing costs are worth it to you and you are assured you can pay it off, then go ahead. Yes, Judith and I financed her medical education and our house, but we'll have them paid off years ahead of time, greatly reducing the financing costs. That's the way financing should be entered.

Finally, you mentioned operating costs. Well, a lot of that depends. Hangar or not? Will you do your own maintenance? If you built your own, will you get the repairman's certificate? Even so, fuel costs about $25 an hour and will only go up with prices at the pump and depending on your flying habits. Oil, filters, and other consumables. Slush fund for repairs. Insurance. There are good books out there about aircraft ownership. My feeling is that if you can afford to build it then you will be able to afford to fly it.
 
I have to chime in here. I have helped teach budgeting at our church for the last 15 years. By far the highest cause of divorce in this country is stress over money. I don't think you need to have your house paid off but there is no excuse to go forward with a project like this while you have school or other consumer debt. Get you debt down to only a fixed rate mtg, preferably 15 yr not 30 with 20% equity so you are not paying PMI then go for it. (It goes without saying that you have your wife's buy in on this, if she is not supportive your are headed for disaster.)

Regards John
 
All tough games are won with a plan. Lot's of armchair quarterbacks here.

My thought....

Find 2 or 3 other low time or student pilots and pool your money to buy a decent C172, PA180, or something of the like that will allow you to finish your training at a lower cost. Make sure that it can be used for IFR training should you decide to go that way.

Work out the share plan with the others. When to sell (at 1,200 hours towards TBO, maybe 3 years, etc..), what goes in the kitty for time flown, annuals, insurance, etc.... Once a quarter, everybody pays up and goes into the bank. No hard feelings.

Now you can continue flying, take the family a trip, etc..... If you choose the other owners wisely, you will have a safety pilot to for IFR practice and get to split cost on a Saturday trip for the 100 dollar hamburger. Each person flies one way.

I did it that way. My A&P had a cherry C172 that 3 of us bought a share in. Maintenance was cheap that way and we each threw 15 bucks an hour for flight time. Log was kept in the plane which the secretary billed to our credit card each month. It was manditory with the group that the plane was ALWAYS put up with full tanks. We each split the insurance cost evenly each year. When I left, he paid my share back to me and another person bought it. Should the plane have been sold, we would have split the profits evenly. IT WAS THE CHEAPEST FLYING I HAVE EVER DONE.

Come to think of it, my plane cost 400 a month just to insure and park it in a hanger. That's before I even turn the prop. Maybe I need a partner.

Now, on to building....don't be in a rush. Start looking for a deal out there. periodically, somebody bought an empanage that they are not going to tackle. Wings are the same way. If you are on the 7 year plan, then you have plenty of hiding in wait looking for the best deals out there. You can even post a WTB for something. If you are on the slow slow plan, you can do definately do it without going into debt. Start a building fund that throw money into. Maybe it's a whole life insurance policy. Donate faithfully so you don't know it's spendable. Before you know it, you have the fuselage paid for and you haven't finished the wings yet.

Moral of this story is to have strategy. Sit down with the bride and discuss the plan. The better your gameplan the sweeter the win.
 
Advice

Taking advice about doing "what feels right" will get you the same resuilts as taking advice when you were younger from those saying "come on...it feels good".
You can afford a toy when your "CASH Toy Fund" has the appropriate balance. Trust me, owning an airplane is the cheapest part of the flying experience. When you spend money you don't have, AKA "Borrow", Murphy will be your airplane partner.
 
Chronology

1. Get PPL 1st.

2. Find out if wife/family enjoy flying with you. My wife paid for my PPL out of her personal savings, loves to fly with me, has no interest in becoming a pilot.

Son, now married loves to fly with me. Daughter considers going along an obligation to be fulfilled if she can't think of an excuse to avoid. Once you know how your family feels, you will have an idea which RV model you would like to be flying.

3. Building does not save money. Do you want to build, do you want to build&fly, or do you want to fly? If you only want to fly, purchase a used RV of the model tht fits #2. See numerous preceding posts.

4. If you are going to build, buy the empennage kit either from Van's or an unstarted kit from an owner, using cash only. Find out how long it takes you and how interactive your family is with the situation. Same wife who personally paid for my flight training has no interest in building and the time I spend building has to be really transparent to her (but she does NOT begrudge cash $, would begrudge indebtedness). When one can only work irregularly on the build it takes MUCH longer. Every time you have to figure out where you left off and what you need to do next. It took me 2.5 years to build the empennage kit under the preceding circumstances and I only logged 200 hrs. In other words, I could only squeeze in 80 hrs. per year. How long do you think it will take me to build an RV?! YMMV, but you won't know until you've actually completed the cheapest portion of the kit. ONly then can you make an informed decisions about whether you're a builder or a flyer.

5. I personally find building rewarding, educational and recreational. I know the project will take a LONG time and that there are flying planes that can be purchased for less money than I will have in mine. I am also a flyer, which means I have to have a flying plane while I build, which I do.

While your own desires may be different from mine, I hope that you will find the above helpful in reaching the decision you need to make for yourself and your family.

Larry Tompkins
 
LarryT said:
1. Get PPL 1st.

2. Find out if wife/family enjoy flying with you. My wife paid for my PPL out of her personal savings, loves to fly with me, has no interest in becoming a pilot.

Son, now married loves to fly with me. Daughter considers going along an obligation to be fulfilled if she can't think of an excuse to avoid. Once you know how your family feels, you will have an idea which RV model you would like to be flying.

3. Building does not save money. Do you want to build, do you want to build&fly, or do you want to fly? If you only want to fly, purchase a used RV of the model tht fits #2. See numerous preceding posts.

While your own desires may be different from mine, I hope that you will find the above helpful in reaching the decision you need to make for yourself and your family.

Larry Tompkins
Click to expand...

About the best advice I have seen in this thread.
 
aarvig said:
I am 34 years old, have 3 kids, six figure student loans, a mortgage and a 5 year old business.
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First thing... as was said prior, get that PPL done before you start down the road of aircraft construction! (PERIOD) You've got 3 kids and your own business, you don't need the distraction! :)

A few rhetorical questions... With 3 kids, what about life insurance? Saving for your kid's education? Your rainy day / emergency fund?

While I am all for chasing the dream, I don't think prioritizing dreams ahead of a family's wellbeing is wise for anyone. If recent history has shown us anything its that we each need to take responsiblity for ensuring our own financial survival.

I think we all tend to get caught up in the instant gratification mentality of thinking that we are only making progress if we are pounding rivets NOW. Make a financial plan and do what you need to do now to put everything in motion. You may find that you need to put off the project for a bit, but by living your life in accordance with your plan you are still making progress towards your ultimate goal... right?

A note from my personal experience...
Make no mistake about it, building your own aircraft is a HUGE commitment of both time and $... Be very honest with yourself about what you can devote to the project before you jump in.

Good luck!
 
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Go for it

As my Scottish grand mother who raised a family during the depression used to say - "To **** with poverty, give the cat the canary!"

Good luck - but don't come looking for tax payer help if it all turns pear shaped:D

Jim Sharkey

PS - that could be Doug's new catch phrase!:)
 
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I tried resisting replying to your post, but I couldn't help myself.

Think long and hard before jumping into a project that will take more of your time and money away from your family.

When you're lying on your death bed, will you say, "I wish I'd spent more of my time working on airplanes and running my business", or will it be more like, "I wish I'd spent more time with my kids and wife".

Kids grow up FAST and you just can't recover those early years if you miss them being tied up pounding rivets instead of playing catch.

With priorities in the wrong place, you may very well only get to see your kids every other week end.:(

In the end, your decision will not be based on any of the advice you've recieved here. A man's treasure can be found where his heart is, and you'll put yours there as well.

Buy a cheap, old, safe spam can you can fly your family around in and spend your rivet pounding time wrestling with the kids on the lawn. In no time, aftery the young un's have flown the coupe, you'll find yourself with plenty time for airplane projects! :D

I hope you put your family first.
 
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Good Airplane Forum, Bad Financial Forum

This group has a lot of sharp people, and all of us have opinions, but this kind of thing is something only you can answer.
Where there is a will, there is a way. You and you alone can waiger the price in time, money, relationships, family, and work.
My airplane cost me $80K, 8 1/2 years, and one wife. Other experiences may vary.
 
Thanks for all the advice from everyone who has been there and done that. It was definitely thought provoking. Just to answer a couple of questions out there:
1.) Life insurance-covered. I even made sure it would stay in force if I got a PPL and flew experimental aircraft. So, I am good there.
2.) Kids college-started 3 529 plans that are well funded. If this flippin stock market would ever turn around all three kids should have 75-80% of their college paid for. I won't pay for it all. I believe kids should put some skin in the game while in college. Hopefully, this helps them to focus on being good students.
3.) Rainy day fund-doing OK.
4.) My own retirement-doing OK. However this down turn in the market has devalued my assets the same as everyone else.
5.) Wife-not on board right now. She is fine with me building a plane she just wants me to wait a few years. I don't want Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome so this is the biggest barrier for now.
So, lots of good advice. My 2.5 year old lives for airplanes. I am not sure if this is a genuine love right now or if he is just that way because his daddy is. Just in case, I am taking him to Oshkosh this year for two days this year to see if he really likes it.:D It should be a lot of fun.
I like the advice about buying a spam can with some good partners and building time. I think this may be the best advice although I want to start pounding rivets right NOW!! Alas, I must be patient.
I remember the saying "the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." Good thought. Its just a question of when to take the first step. Hopefully we'll meet some of you at Oshkosh.
Thanks again for all the friendly advice.
 
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What are you going to do if you've got a RV under construction and after flying for a few years you decide you like aerobatics or soaring and need a Pitts or ASW27? You havn't soleoed yet, so spend some time buying tools and learning skills while you're building time and then decide what you really want to fly.
 
Installment Plan

aarvig said:
Thanks for all the advice from everyone who has been there and done that. It was definitely thought provoking. Just to answer a couple of questions out there:
1.) Life insurance-covered. I even made sure it would stay in force if I got a PPL and flew experimental aircraft. So, I am good there.
2.) Kids college-started 3 529 plans that are well funded. If this flippin stock market would ever turn around all three kids should have 75-80% of their college paid for. I won't pay for it all. I believe kids should put some skin in the game while in college. Hopefully, this helps them to focus on being good students.
3.) Rainy day fund-doing OK.
4.) My own retirement-doing OK. However this down turn in the market has devalued my assets the same as everyone else.
5.) Wife-not on board right now. She is fine with me building a plane she just wants me to wait a few years. I don't want Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome so this is the biggest barrier for now.
So, lots of good advice. My 2.5 year old lives for airplanes. I am not sure if this is a genuine love right now or if he is just that way because his daddy is. Just in case, I am taking him to Oshkosh this year for two days this year to see if he really likes it.:D It should be a lot of fun.
I like the advice about buying a spam can with some good partners and building time. I think this may be the best advice although I want to start pounding rivets right NOW!! Alas, I must be patient.
I remember the saying "the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." Good thought. Its just a question of when to take the first step. Hopefully we'll meet some of you at Oshkosh.
Thanks again for all the friendly advice.
Click to expand...

The neat thing about an RV is that you can do it on an installment plan. Build and spend what you can afford in terms of time and money. My son and I have had fun over the years drilling holes and bucking rivets - he is now in his junior year as an engineering major at RPI in Troy NY.

I have spent ~$65k over nearly 10 years - about the same as a fancy car lease (I passed on the fancy car) - but will soon fly a high performance sports plane with a new engine, "glass" panel and day/night VFR capability. In the meantime for fun I have flown C172s, a PA12 and a Champ with my local club.

The only reason for building is if you want to build - and I can attest that it has been a blast, err I mean "recreational and educational".

If you just want to fly join a club, form a partnership and/or go buy a flying RV or Cessna.

I wouldn't take on any debt - but that's a personal thing. Heck it's because everyone is behaving like me now that the economy is in such bad shape! When everyone else was borrowing and spending like crazy life was good. Perhaps we need more of that.

Jim Sharkey

PS - My wife firmly believes that if God had meant man to fly he would have given him tickets - preferably first class to somewhere warm and sunny with silver dining service and a movie or two thrown in. To be honest when the kids were young we never flew together - a bit like the President and Vice President or the Queen and Prince of Wales.
 
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Dude, you have a lot on your plate! I am somewhat in your boat minus 2 kids and the student loan amounts. I used to work for a big airline that furloughed many in the indy area. At the time I had a old mustang fastback in the middle of restoration. I kept chuggin along with it. After six years, and a lot of setbacks I finished it. I drove it for awhile ebayed it about a year ago. I made up my mind to have one hobby..flying. I took the money and paid off the Sallie Mae flying loan, the visa, the discover, and the lowes card. I cut them up actually. I started buying the harmon rocket kit piece by piece. I highlite it when its bought and work forward the next piece of aluminum skin or bulkhead etc. I have 75% of the kit and still looking for that -4 fuselage untouched. Our big issue is time. How much do you have? I have my little girl every other weekend. I work roughly 16hr days during the week. On my weekends, I go out to the garage and think wow....$3K worth of titanium gear legs...when will I really start this thing full time? I know I went off the path a bit, but its time. You dont want to neglect the family activities. If you can swing it, do it somehow. But, pay for it with cash. Be smart about it. The other alternative is maybe finding a sweet partner deal. The aircraft market is in the toilet. Take advantage of it if you can. Just my $.02
 
Building can be an enjoyable family thing. My wife really enjoys working with me on the kit and I wouldn't think of going into the garage to build without her. We took a 'how to build' class from the Orendorf's when they were still in Tx. We went together to the class and that started our building project off right. Heck think of Dan and Jen or Scott and Tanya. Don't think of keeping the building to yourself! Just don't become obsessed. Leave plenty of time for other things (like golf) :D

Don't forget you'll need tools - though not all right away. Those are easy to collect over time. You'd need a good air compressor to keep the tires up on the car, then an air drill because those electric motors burn out and the batteries die, then metal snips and rivet gun to make Christmas decorations...

BTW, we stalled for several years now while we deal with life, older family members and finances. The tools are still here and the emp is safely stored. We hope to get back to it in a year or so. We paid cash for what we have and no need to get rid of anything. Sooner or later the panel and engine will change that but for now it's nickels and dimes in the penny jar and knowing you're slowly working your way down the road.
 
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I let my wife read everyones comments. It was actually good for her to read them all and good for me to go through them again with her. My wife says a good time frame is to start in 2-3 years. I wholeheartedly agree. That will allow me to save some bucks to pay cash for the airframe kit as you all have told me to do. It will take 5-6 years for me to build it given my commitments to family and work which should allow me to save enough money to pay cash for an engine. I still plan on simple avionics. I tell you, posting on this forum saved me about $1000 bucks in marriage counseling and misery. Kari and I read the posts and came to a conclusion without any difficulty. (So, I wonder if that means I can put a thousand bucks in the plane fund! :D). Thanks again everyone.
 
On Target

My thoughts are that if my wife will not buy into the idea, I'm done. (But, she's not said no, and "I'm not dead yet! I'm feeling much better!") Best of luck!
 
f1rocket said:
... One, tomorrow is promised to no one. Two, live your dreams...
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Randy,

This is a great quote!

As for building, time and money are what you are taking away from your family. Make sure they are willing to give you both.

The other problem is, your new toy will only seat you and one of your family members. Maybe you should look at a -10, a Bearhawk, or a Super Rebel which seats six. Granted the last two are slower than the RV-10 but they should also cost less.

Remember, building is both a journey and a destination.
 
Aaron was it a mistake for me to invite you over to check out the RV-7 progress on Sunday? (He did sit in fuselage and run the controls...which I do every time I finish a work session!) :D I could see the fire in your eyes when you left! That passion will be an important component for you when finishing your project one day!

...in the mean time, we'll take the -6 over the EAU for pancakes! (until my -7 is done!)

- Peter

PS - I'm kidding! It was great to have you over! Feel free to bring Kari by so she can see what it's all about. My wife Beth would be happy to share how it's been for her over the last 3 years with me in the shop sanding wing ribs etc. at all hours of the morning. It's tough but doable if managed properly.
 
if you never start you'll never finish

I haven't read all the replies but here is my take.....If we wait until we can 'afford' it to start there is a good chance that you will never start (always something will come up and you'll say next year).....there is an old saying that goes..... If you never start you'll never finish...not sure who said that but it is what I believe....This is an adventure and a journey. Its a big juggling act family/life/building/flying. If I stopped and put numbers down on paper I would not have got my pilots licence 31 years ago....go for it....just keep things in perspective.
 
aarvig,

I am going through the same thing you are (I have 2 kids, and I'm even younger than you), here is what I did:

1. Bought a cessna 150. They are cheap to own, cheap to fly, and resellable.
2. Hired a private instructor to teach me in my airplane. This saved a ton of money on a rental. Once I soloed, I was able to fly all I wanted as long as I stayed in the general area and was restricted to 2 airports.
3. Went to Oshkosh with my wife to look at all of the cool stuff. The trip was expensive, but she was on board after that.
4. Got my PPL and took my wife for a ride. Occasionally we fly into the downtown airport and walk to a nice Italian restaurant, eat, then fly back at night which is cool because of the city lights.
5. Order kit plane and start building.

Here are the steps I've yet to finish:

6. Sell C150 and use the money to purchase the engine.
7. Get kit plane flying.
8. (optional) start working on my IFR ticket

That said, I bought the C-150 when the economy was a lot better and I'm probably going to loose money on it, however it's still cheaper than renting, and I've been flying it for 3 seasons now. With the price of small airplanes right now, you will probably make money on that plan.

Here is a picture of my first (but not last) airplane: http://www.schu.net/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=13628

As for the money, 100k is a ton of debt, I would pay that down before I did anything, I'm not completely building out of pocket like others suggest, but I am on track to own the airplane in less than 5 years so I think that is close enough for me especially when the interest rate the way it is and the cost of parts going up.

schu
 
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N200PF said:
Aaron was it a mistake for me to invite you over to check out the RV-7 progress on Sunday? (He did sit in fuselage and run the controls...which I do every time I finish a work session!) :D I could see the fire in your eyes when you left! That passion will be an important component for you when finishing your project one day!

...in the mean time, we'll take the -6 over the EAU for pancakes! (until my -7 is done!)

- Peter

PS - I'm kidding! It was great to have you over! Feel free to bring Kari by so she can see what it's all about. My wife Beth would be happy to share how it's been for her over the last 3 years with me in the shop sanding wing ribs etc. at all hours of the morning. It's tough but doable if managed properly.
Click to expand...

Yeah Peter, seeing one in progress definitely got the fire burning even hotter. I think Tom knew what he was doing when he invited me over. I think deep down inside he wants to keep the build projects going in the cities so he has some planes to build in retirement! :D
I'll definitely take you up on pancakes at EAU. You won't have to twist my arm at all. I never did get your number. PM it to me if you want.
For those following the thread, Peter had me over to his house to look at his in progress RV-7 last Sunday. Wings were done, fuselage was in progress, tail was done. So, I walk into the basement of his house and all of a sudden there was the object of my affection right there in the basement. A real RV-7 kitplane. Very good job on the building. Yes, I sat in it, and yes I wanted to make airplane sounds and dive bomb the screen porch, but I refrained. Seeing Peters plane made me realize that the project is doable. Thanks Peter!
 
I am plans building a Mustang II. In plans building you buy a set of plans, usually about $400, and you fabricate most of the parts from raw materials. Kit manufacturers who sell plans will sell you the individual parts that you can't or don't want to make yourself. Plans building takes longer but is much cheaper. The Sonex is an excellent aircraft that can be plans built. Also, the Sonex will fly very well on a VW engine which is very reasonably priced. One advantage of plans building is the low cost of getting started. You could actually start making parts with a total outlay of about $1,500. That would include the plans, some tools and some aluminum sheet. Another advantage of plans building is actually learning building aluminum aircraft from A-Z. I don't think that happens when you buy kits. Also, there's a lot of enjoyment to be had in layout and forming of intricate shapes. It's a real skill that you will develop if you plans build.

Any aircraft that you put a Lycoming engine in will be very expensive. Think in terms of a $40,000 minimum. Add hanger, insurance and all the other ongoing costs and it gets very expensive real quick. Should you wait? Absolutely not. But I would make the RV my second or third plane, not my first.

PS: Minimum tools you will need to start will include aviation quality tin snips, blue fine tip Sharpies, thin flexable metal ruler, a table top sander with one 8" disc and one 1" belt on the same machine, a table top jig saw, a plastic dead blow hammer, a pair of fluting pliers, a pair of hand seaming pliers and of course a hand held drill of some kind.
 
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;)Lots of good practical advice above but sometimes its about passion...

I think Dreams are the secret to a good life, a goal to strive toward when we're looking for direction, an escape from reality when needed, and dreams can sometimes define our future and the paths we take. The nicest thing about dreams are they do not have to be practical. There is plenty of demand for practical in our lives but that doesn't mean we have to give up on our dreams... we just need to be practical in pursuing them and keep them in perspective with all of our other responsibilities.

A very early lesson came with my first assignment after flight school. One of the guys in the squadron was building a pool. This man and his wife had sacrificed and lived a very frugal life so they could enjoy their retirement. All he talked about while I was getting my combat readiness certification was all the plans they had and the things they were going to do in retirement. He retired while I was on my first tour in Southeast Asia, and died before I completed the tour. This guy died of a heart attack in his mid 40s, a man who six months before had been flying his own combat missions and anyone would have believed was a picture of good health (like the USAF Flt Surgeons!). As the man said earlier - there are no guarantees for tomorrow. Plan for it, but don't put off living for it.

Never quit dreaming and live your dreams when you can. Don't regret that you didn't do something, be positive that some dreams, like the dreams you have for your family, may push some of your other dreams downstream a little. An RV might be way down the list but buy a used tail kit when you think you can, there's plenty of discarded and neglected ones out there that can be had cheap. Take your time, there is no race but it will tell you if this is something you really want to do. In the meantime you are more than a dreamer, you're a builder, you even get a kit number! So what if it takes you 10 years before you look for the next part? Gives you time to live the other parts of your life and its easier to get your wife involved working with you if you're not sacrificing everything else for "your" airplane - and you need her to Really make it work!

Flying is tough to get out of your system... if you're a dreamer...
 
A reasonable comparison...

aarvig said:
I am 34 years old, have 3 kids, six figure student loans, a mortgage and a 5 year old business. I recently started working on my private pilot license and am about to solo. Well, much to the chagrin of my wife the flying bug bit me again, harder than ever before. (I think I have a disease :D) Because of this, the desire to build a plane has had me researching everything from a Sonex to the RV. Of course, my dream plane is an RV-7A. My plan would be to build the RV as "affordably" as possible. Basic day/night VFR panel, fixed pitch prop, no paint for now, and an overhauled O/IO-360. Hoping to come in around $55k. Financially, I can do this over about 7-10 years with my current income which I hope will go up but I am considering it to remain the same for the purposes of this financial exercise. If my income goes up, the time to build comes down. So after the excitement of considering the build wore off I realized I have to afford to operate this thing. YIKES. So I was hoping I could get some information on how much annual operating costs for an RV were as well as some of your stories as to how you managed to pay for the build and pay to fly the finished product so I can determine if the RV is the right plane for my situation.
The other option I considered was to build a Sonex with a 3300 Jabiru engine and fly it till I could afford to build and fly the RV. But, the Sonex just isn't even close to an RV. Its not really what I want but I know that right now I can afford to build and fly one. All these difficult decisions! :confused: Bottom line, I need to know if I can afford it and keep my family together and happy at the same time. Thanks ahead for all your advice.
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Aaron -

I am (kind of) you....about three years down the track....

I am literally addicted to flying but family comes first.

I'm 37, married, 2 kids, started building an RV-7 two years ago.....nearly flying.

From a work perspective I run my own architectural practice with 30 staff, however I have three other small businesses which are somewhat demanding as well. I have been my own boss for ten years now.

I am fortunate enough to be financially comfortable but believe me I have got a fat mortgage and expensive private education fees for both kids.

If you can manage a business successfully you are clearly capable of making the decision about whether or not you can afford to build while you have got a mortgage and other associated expenses.

That's the easy bit. Managing the family/life/airplane building balance is the Black Art.....it can be done, but it isn't easy.

I would stick by the following rules:

1. Build at home that way you can balance your time more easily (I didn't follow this rule - built at my farm in the hangar which meant a day trip every time i wanted to work on it!).

2. If you are ever feeling guilty about working on your RV you probably shouldn't be working on it. Drop it and spend some time with wife or kids or at office or whatever else it is that is making you feel that way....your project will still be waiting for you in the shed when you come back another day.

3. Believe in yourself and understand that what you are doing is good for you personally. This is not a selfish attitude. Many families have failed because individuals have departed after suffering from the feeling of failure associated with a lack of self achievement in life. I have developed a very successful architectural practice with my two business partners however I can tell you that my family and my RV are more important achievements in my opinion (lucky my business partners don't read this forum!!!). Plenty of people criticise my choice in life to build an aeroplane (including to some degree my parents!) but frankly they just don't get it. Just remember that your wife and children need to feel a sense of personal achievement just as much as you do.

4. Finally - if you are feeling time pressured and you are struggling with the project get some help if you can afford it and DON'T set unrealistic goals.

So if you take it on it will take a long time but eventually it will fly. Apparently it's the golden egg thing when that happens....however I can't speak from experience because I a still building and LOVING every moment of it that I squeeze into my busy life....I won't be lying on my deathbed wishing!!!

Cheers,

JON
 
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Step back, take a deep breath and look at the big picture

I got bit by the flying bug as a boy sitting in the cockpit of a Stearman. I actually had a chance to buy an aircraft in my late 20's (Cherokee with lessons through private for $10,000). I decided to walk away and put my family first. We were starting our family and my wife and I wanted her to be able to stay home with kids.

However in making that decision that I believe was right, something happened many may consider luck. I don't believe in luck. We either create our own realities or more often God blesses us based on making right decisions. Read on...

That said, a few years later I found myself in one of the top US flight schools for three years, fully funded where I got my Commercial SEL, Instrument and A&P. I graduated DEBT FREE also. I then went on to fly professionally for another 3000 hours as a missionary pilot in the rain forests of South America. AOPA did a story based on my flying experience. Here is a link to that story: http://www.aopa.org/careerpilot/cs-mission_pilot.html

Then several years into that, we took another role in the organization I flew with (MAF) as web developer and pilot recruiter. My fellow pilots wondered if I'd gone crazy. I flew more than anyone else on the base and loved it. But again, I did what I sensed in heart was what God wanted me to do.

I walked away from flying for another 7 years.

Then through a serendipitous chain of events I have found myself going to look at an RV-8 project next week with an uber-experienced RV pilot/builder (former AF F-16 pilot, current SW captain and A&P & two time RV builder). It looks very much like I may buy this project and have it flying within a year. Goal is to fly it up to Oshkosh next year.

So what's the point? Be patient. Things have a way of working out if it is meant to be. I hope this helps.

Bottom line: Been there done that and know exactly how you feel right now. I wouldn't trade anything for the aviation experience I have been blessed to be a part of and in the way it all unfolded in my lifetime.

BTW if interested I am web developer ( I now own my own web dev company) for a group being featured in this years EAA called Fly4Life. Our website is here www.iamanet.org

Blessings,

Sandy
 
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UPDATE

I read through this post with a smile on my face as I thought of where I was when I wrote this. Just as the Chinese proverb says; "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step...the journey of 15,000 rivets begins with the same single step." I started by working towards my PPL.
I am about 4 weeks away from completing my PPL. It has been an exciting summer. I made sure to include my wife in some of my lessons when my instructor would allow it. The good news is...she is hooked on flying about as bad as I am. We are flying to Duluth on Moday with my instructor in his SR22 Turbo (introduce her to Cadillac style). She is really looking forward to that. She also gave me the green light on my build project. I really owe that to my AOPA mentor Tom Berge who is a tech counsellor and multiple offender. He has a beautiful RV-7A which he kindly demonstrated to my wife on multiple occasions. Because of those experiences she is really excited to have an RV. Tom has done a good job of prepping her for what to expect during the build project and she is on board for all of it. I think she may even be looking forward to bucking rivets.:D
I recently purchased all the tools I need for the shop. I need to build some tables, wire and soundproof the basement and I will be off and running! I also took my 3 year old to OSH this year and he got to meet Dick VanGrunsven. I said this is the man that designed the airplane we're going to build. Van said..."he is probably to young to comprehend that." Pretty typical! :) He is a pretty humble guy.
Anyway I am excited to officially join the RV family. The guys in the MN wing are very open and helpful and I am sure I am going to lean on them a lot for support and assistance in the coming years. Not to mention everyone on this forum! I'll keep you all updated!
 
Start Building and see if you like it :)

You may start the tail and decide you don't want to build... or you may get hooked :) My family is totally into it, so I feel fortunate to have the support.

As for financing, I just save what I can and take each step when I can. I chose the -7 over the -10 due to cost. $60,000 is a lot more within my current budget than $150,000. I have two young kids as well, but by the time the -7 is done, my son will have 4-5 years left until college. The plane is a vehicle for my wife and I, more so than family vacations. If I want to fly four, I will rent something from the local club. Once the kids are gone, we can use the -7 to travel and visit the kids. That's the plan.

Bottom line, you can build in spurts as financing allows. Don't endanger the family, but also don't squash your dreams :)
 
Just Do It

My wife was diagnosed with terminal breast cancer 3 years ago and was given a year to live. She has survived 3 and is so far cancer free. She gave me the best advice the other day. I was discussing my desire to build an RV12 and get back into flying, I told her I thought it would take a few years to get going with money and all, she said "why wait, you might get hit by a bus tomorrow". Her situation reminded me that life is precious, if you wait forever to accomplish your dreams you will die a dreamer.

If you have a way to make it happen, do it, you have no idea what the next sunrise will bring and you never will, but hindsight is always 20/20.
 
Partnership

Join your local RV group, buy a share that fits into your $. You can sell your share if you need to. Learn about the RV's and the people around them. Building time belongs to your family at this stage in life. Good luck.
 
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