F

fireandfly

Member
I'm looking for some honest answers on what you builders think of us buyers.
After 1200 hours of renting, teaching and owning (a spam can) I was looking for a plane that would last a lifetime, both in reliablility and excitement. I was looking for a nose dragger, stick and rudder, side by side. Not too many spam cans like that. A friend said "check out the RV6A" I did and fell in love. I found a plane that was beautifully built and gets a lot of attention at the fuel pump from other RV folk. But the first thing I say out of guilt is "I didn't build it." I usually get a Hmmm. The bonding tends to stop there and they causually drift away. At my field there are about 40 experimentals and the guys have been great, of course I'm right there everyday.
BUT!! I still feel like (like I said in another thread) the only sober one at a party.
I love my RV - I love flying - and I understand the difference between spending years building your dream and sharing experiences with other builders, and someone who just paid for it.
So what do you think when a "buyer" shows up at a fly in, puts their plane on display, wants to fly with the gang to breakfast.
Like I said - I love flying, been doing it for 17 years on my own and with friends. Feelings won't get hurt, I'm ready for it, break open a beer and start typing. I'll even take PM's if you don't want to write it in an open forum. :)
Thanks, Jeff
 
fireandfly said:
snip....So what do you think when a "buyer" shows up at a fly in, puts their plane on display, wants to fly with the gang to breakfast....snip
Click to expand...
I say let's go eat :D.

Most of my formation time is with a guy whose building experience consisted of signing his name on a check. Honestly, it never really occurred to me to treat Scorch with anything but the normal about of contempt I usually treat him with.

You know, come to think of it, most of the RV people around our airport don't seem to talk about building that much. I guess it's because we are having so much fun flying we talk about flying things.

b,
dr
 
I'm with Doug. Honestly, I have a lot more FUN flying with the folks who "adopted" RVs than I do with the folks who are still toiling over their project in garages after years and years. And I have a ton of respect for those who are honest with themselves about wanting to fly more than they want to build. I say do it however you can...just do it! :D
 
Very Very few of us build our own cars. But many of us develop a bond kinda thing with them. Same can happen with only buying someones build other than your own.When you fly over at 10,000 ft, as I rivit, I don't Know if you built it or who. All I know is YOUR FLYING
 
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Jeff

Most of the guys I know welcome "RV'ers" regardless of how they came to fly them. After all not everyone is inclined or able to spend upteen years building their own aircraft. You should keep in mind that some of those asking may be building and looking for advice or the answers to questions ( I know I am one :) ). They may feel a bit disappointed you will not be able to enlighten them.

My one and only beef with buyers are the ones that use a "hired gun" to build their airplane, put their own name on the certificate, and then enter "their" airplane at Oshkosh or other fly-ins for awards. :mad:
 
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Don't worry about it

Just go out and fly and share the bond of commonality of people who fly these wonderful airplanes. There may be people who look down, don't worry about them...they're outnumbered by the "friendlies". It's the people you meet...
 
I agree with everyone else. Besides, if there weren't buyers for these planes, where would the funds come from for the next project? Or "permission" from a spouse in the first place? (It's like money in the bank, honey! See, when I'm done if you don't love the flying, we can get the money back with interest!)

I'm building because I want to build more than I want to fly - if it were the other way around, I'd be a buyer, too.
 
Johnny has it right

Some wise person once told me that there were two kinds of homebuilders. Those who want to build an airplane and those who have to build an airplane. I am a "have to," that is, I wanted the airplane to use more than I wanted to build it. I was fortunate to find an airplane that was just to the point that I was able to add my personal touches through paint, equipment and the like. The only downside I can think of is not being able to do my own condition inspections. Small price to pay for getting in the air several years sooner than I had planned.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
My policy with that sort of thing is to never say anything more than I have to...if that. If they don't ask you if you built the thing, there's no need to raise the issue. :D
 
Builder vs. Buyer

I bought my first RV (N65RV - RV6A) and very shortly after buying it I was putting it in my rented hanger and a guy walks over and starts asking me all about it. After telling him how wonderful an airplane it was he asked if I built it. I told him "No, after getting a ride in an RV-6 I was so hot for one I just couldn't see waiting for 3-4 years to build."

He then invited me over to see his airplane in a closed hanger across the way. When he opened up the hanger door there sit a gorgous RW&B RV-6A. That was my first expierece with the sly grin Terry Cole is known for all over the RV community.

Terry got me started with the local EAA chapter and drew me into the RV community and we became best friends. Terry and I were building RV-10's side by side when he passed away in 2005 with a heart attack.

Don't worry about building vs. flying the RV crowd has got to be the best bunch of guys and gals that God ever created.
 
Couldn't agree more

I am a builder....I've built two airplanes and a house with my own bare hands...Its what i do.

BUT....I am reliably informed I will not be building another airplane!

I just hope I got the bug out of my system...:)

One of the big reasons for building an RV is that although it won't make you money, you should at least be able to sell it for close to what it cost you.

So if it wasn't for buyers, this money would be sunk and the value of the completed aircraft would be way less than what it cost us....We need each other you see.

Besides, I too am beginining to enjoy flying more than the building.

Frank 7a
 
Well, I don't have a problem with buyers, just be realistic about what you can and can't do maintenance-wise. Legally, you can pretty much do the maintenance, with the exception of the condition inspection. It may be a good idea to get a little guidence on things that you don't completely understand, since you didn't build it.

Other than that, build vs. buy isn't any issue for me.
 
I'm impressed (should I not have been?)

The RV world proves itself once again. I really was looking for people to say, "yea, it's a bit tough talking with purchased RV-ers." I wasn't looking for the trivial, "hey we love everybody" But I really think that every answer was real, that's what you guys are all about.
Thanks. Next time the Hmmmm will mean a different thing!
Jeff
 
RV'ers and Bowling

Due in part to Doug, this group goes against the norm:

AT THE MIDDLE PASSAGE

By Walter Mills


Mabel and Elsie Are Leaving

Now that I have gotten to the point in life where I spend a few moments
every morning with the obituary section of the newspaper, I have come to
realize that we are fast losing a generation of Elsies and Lotties,
Minnies and Mabels.

These are the women in their 80s and 90s who saw the Great Depression
in its entirety, whose fathers were off fighting the First World War
while there was still something called the Austro-Hungarian Empire to
fight against. They were young women in their 20s and 30s when the
Second World War left them alone on the Home Front, listening to radio
reports from Europe where their husbands and brothers were fighting the
last good war of the century.

Their obituaries often have a great similarity - "She was a homemaker
who enjoyed quilting and gardening. She had six children, two of whom
preceded her in death. She was active in her church and was a member of
the Ladies Auxiliary Fire Department and the Ladies Aid Society."

They lived in a time when the country was still largely rural, when
canning and quilting were both a necessity and a social activity. Many
of them attended one-room schoolhouses and were married in the same
country church where their parents had wed and next to which their great
grandparents were buried. They did not often move far from the place
where they were born.

In the small-town newspapers of fifty years ago, their comings and
goings were recorded on the social page: "Charles and Sadie Tewksbury
report a visit for the month of June from her cousin, Minnie Cooper and
her husband Roy Cooper of Elmira, New York, along with their four
children." Family reunions, church suppers, Red Cross meetings were the
everyday entertainments and news events in the times between and after
the wars.

For the most part these women stayed at home and took care of the house
and children, or worked on the family farm. Most of them married for a
lifetime, and almost all of them outlived their husbands, and often a
child or two. They were accustomed to loss, to hard work, and their
rewards were usually intangible - a clean home, respectful children, a
place in the community.

Along with the loss of the Netties and the Irmas we are seeing a decline
in the great tradition of sociability, of social and civic activities,
that was a defining characteristic of America for its first 150 years.

I recently came across an article by Robert Putnam, a Harvard
sociologist, called "Bowling Alone: America's Declining Social Capital".
By almost any calculation, Putnam says, we are losing our connectedness
to each other as well as our sense of civic responsibility. In one
whimsical example he discovered that although more people than ever go
bowling, bowling leagues are in a drastic decline. Shriners and Lions
Clubs, Elks and Jaycees, women's clubs and Red Cross volunteering have
all taken nosedives.

Alexis de Tocqueville, one of the earliest observers of America, saw in
us a nation of joiners, forever forming associations. Our habit of civic
democracy on a local level was what made our national democracy so
successful, he believed.

As I write this I can glance out the window and see across an open field
to the Grange Hall, an old building with peeling white paint. One
Thursday evening a month a small group still gathers for Grange
meetings, but I cannot imagine that it is not the last remnants of what
was once only one of many strong and active civic organizations.

Putnam's disheartening message is that it is social interconnection that
assures a healthy democratic society, and from voting to volunteering at
the parent-teacher group to regular church-going to bowling in leagues,
we are no longer a nation of social people. Instead we are small units,
wrapped up in our own insularity in front of the television with a DVD,
or plugging ourselves into the disembodied Internet.

Their names sound strange to our modern ears - Lottie and Minnie and
Mabel. The sound of a far different, and some would say, better
generation. Funny old ladies with old-fashioned names. But will the
Grange Hall be empty when they have gone away?
 
WSBuilder said:
Due in part to Doug, this group goes against the norm:
Click to expand...
Slight turn in the conversation... but a very interesting read. I spent some formidable years growing up in rural east Texas. That article goes along with my occasional lament to my wife - longing for simpler times - "Sure wish we could go back to Mayberry..."

(As long as I could have a good airplane!)

:)

DJ
 
Phyrcooler said:
Slight turn in the conversation... but a very interesting read.


DJ
Click to expand...

Well...I thought the conversation was over since the originator sort of closed it. In any case, I thought all the responses were a testament to the close-knit society that still exists in some areas.
 
"Flyers" and "Builders" both have useful advice

Like any community, the RV community expects you to both give and take. Even though you didn't build your RV, you have a lot to contribute, Since you and your RV have a lot more flying time than me and mine (still in my basement), you might be able to help with:

- What breaks?
- What wears?
- What do you wish the builder had done differently?
- What technique works best for crosswind landings? Short fields? Rough fields?

Or just motivate us rivet-bashers with good flying stories. The most important character in this play -- your airplane -- doesn't care that you didn't build it.

Cheers,
Martin
 
No Problem

Most of those I know that bought RV's would have preferred to build, with a few exceptions. Some couldn't build because of time or family constraints. Who really cares, they are part of the greatest group of people in aviation.

Now, that won't stop your RV breathren from some light hearted teasing at that Fly out breakfast. There will be a discussion going on about some phase of building, they will look at you and say, "you wouldn't know about that, we build ours." Just laugh with them, they mean nothing by it.

Enjoy!!!!
 
WSBuilder said:
Due in part to Doug, this group goes against the norm:
Click to expand...

Bill, if you read to the bottom of the Walter Mills article you will find that he rails against the users of the "disembodied internet". That's us Bill....the article doesn't support us...it critisises us.

As for people buying RVs. Well, in my opinion the only thing that counts (the ONLY thing) is the quality of the plane. So better IMHO to buy a good quality RV than to build a poor quality one.
 
RV7Guy said:
Most of those I know that bought RV's would have preferred to build, with a few exceptions.
Click to expand...
Guess I'm one of those exceptions. I'm not mechanically inclined, and would rather be out flying than sitting in the garage cursing at myself. :p
 
Two types of RVators

IMHO, there are only 2 types of RVators, those flying, and those who wish they were flying. As a builder, I'm just a little jealous of your situation because I would have loved to be able to afford to buy rather than building, but that jealousy would quickly melt away if we had the following conversation.
me: Nice plane... I'm building an RV7A.
you: Thanks. I didn't build it, I bought it.
me: hmmmm
you: Want to ride along for some motivation?
me: Are you kidding? I'll buy breakfast!
:D
 
But We Walk the Walk, Too!

Captain Avgas said:
Bill, if you read to the bottom of the Walter Mills article you will find that he rails against the users of the "disembodied internet". That's us Bill....the article doesn't support us...it critisises us.

As for people buying RVs. Well, in my opinion the only thing that counts (the ONLY thing) is the quality of the plane. So better IMHO to buy a good quality RV than to build a poor quality one.
Click to expand...

Bob,
I would agree with you if it weren't for all the things this community does together and for each other (and in person): builders' help, fly-ins, airshows, breakfasts, RV hotels, etc. Countless frienships have grown from this medium. I think the article talks about chat rooms where people rarely tell the truth and hide behind their computers.

Fireandfly,
I'm early in the build phase, so someone that is already flying one of these machines is my hero. At the very least you motivate me to keep going. I especially liked Dan's phrase about "adopting" your RV, since I'm an adoptive parent - that has special meaning to me. If you give one prospective or current builder a flight in your airplane you are a full fledged RV'er, IMO.
 
RV8RIVETER said:
Jeff

My one and only beef with buyers are the ones that use a "hired gun" to build their airplane, put their own name on the certificate, and then enter "their" airplane at Oshkosh or other fly-ins for awards. :mad:
Click to expand...

Jeff,

I know one of those pilots. Yes, her plane is a very unique and attractive RV but the only real part of her that went in it was her money. She boasts rather frequently about the award MY plane won at Sun 'n Fun to everyone that will listen. But that's a whole story in itself that only her and her builder should relay to others.

I bought my 6A after flying out for lunch in my slow Grumman, watching Jay Pratt, Rich Rudolph, and others climb like a rocket (compared to a Grumman!) and quickly disappear from our view. I am very grateful to Bill Akin for letting me fly his 6A and experience just what an RV could do. He dangled the hook and I swallowed it! Not confident that I could build, I made up my mind to buy.

We thought the Grumman Gang were the best bunch of pilots you could ever come across, then we started gradually meeting the Van's Air Force bunch, expecially the BC Squadron of North Texas. It's hard to come by a better group of people! I've learned an awful lot about maintaining my RV from them and have received much assistance modifying my 6A into the plane it is today.

I have attended numerous SWRFI & RMRFI and local fly-ins where they were judging aircraft but have never entered. That should be reserved, imho, to builders, not maintainers.

I bought my RV to fly and that's what I love and hope to continue to do for many years!
 
Buy/Build

I have enjoyed flying with people that love to fly. Reddick and Scorch are among my favorite flying friends. They have RVs and I look up to their piloting skills. It makes no difference to me if a pilot built their airplane or not. We can learn from everyone, just listen..
 
WSBuilder said:
Bob,
I would agree with you if it weren't for all the things this community does together and for each other (and in person).
Click to expand...

Bill, you can't agree or disagree with me because I haven't expressed an opinion on the matter. All I pointed out was that at face value the Walter Mills article which you drew upon for inspiration in fact critisises us for doing exactly what we are now doing at this moment....communicating facelessly by internet.

It's an interesting theory that Mills expounds but not that relevant to us RV builders because we probably tend to use the internet more for the dissemination of necessary technical information.

Cheers Bob
 
I suppose I'm the group that wants to fly. However, I also want to understand the airplane in terms of how it's put together, how the systems work and, most importantly, what things look when they're right and when they're not right. It's that engineer thing again.

That's why I want to build with, as the saying goes, adult supervision. It will be, IMHO, a better quality airplane with a lower build time. And I will understand it better (hopefully)
 
rv'rs

Ok.. for the record...
1. There are either people who built or purchased their RV.
2. The fact that they are doing so puts them in a class all to themselves.... a group of very smart people...
3. If you bought an RV it means that you were either smart enough to realize you felt uncomfortable building or did not want to wait or some other reason.. but the fact that you bought an RV means you worked... earned your money somehow to purchase an RV. So REGARDLESS of how you got yours, you did earn your way somehow :D ...
WELCOME!
 
re: "disconnected internet communication":

People who espouse this viewpoint are at best Luddites and at worst idiots. We enjoy communication with a diverse group of people at breakneck speeds yet have the ability to "slack" from the conversation and have it saved for us when we return.

I owe some of my most valued friendships and in fact my marriage to internet communication. No, we didn't "meet in a chat room" but if it wasn't for multi player gaming and the resulting internet scheduling of the "LAN parties" we would have never crossed paths. She's perfect for me.

Basically, I'm a fan of internet communication and find it hard to understand why anyone would limit who they can "meet".

re: "builder-only" judged shows:

Well, that's fine too but in the auto and motorcycle world there are plenty of folks who buy the vehicle for the express purpose of showing it. They spend lots of money and have the right to call it, "mine" as they own it. Without buyers the entire industry would collapse obviously. Amateur built planes are another breed altogether but if someone buys it, why shouldn't they be able to show it? Seems to me that no matter how you got the thing, it's yours now and that should entitle you to every privilege extended.

One thing that might not be as prevalent in the kitplane group as in the showcar group is that having an elite builder is a matter of pride. People WANT you to know they own a Boyd Coddington... they never hide that fact.
 
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I think the point of the post was that some of these people "claim" to have built when they didn't, thereby accepting "awards" under false pretenses.
 
smoore said:
Well, that's fine too but in the auto and motorcycle world there are plenty of folks who buy the vehicle for the express purpose of showing it. They spend lots of money and have the right to call it, "mine" as they own it.
Click to expand...

Your point is valid but I suppose in the end it comes down to what is being judged. The EAA guidelines for judging aircraft are clearly established to judge the craftsmanship of the builder. In effect it's the builder that's actually being judged....not the plane.

Under the EAA system even the "builder" cannot claim full potential marks for parts of the aircraft he/she did not actually construct. This prevents a system whereby builders with the fattest chequebooks win everything.

Once again, under the EAA guidelines the installation of expensive components, even if installed by the builder, does not necessarily warrant higher points. For example a full IFR instrument panel is not worth any more points than a simple low cost VFR panel built to the same level of expertise.
 
Captain Avgas said:
Bill, you can't agree or disagree with me because I haven't expressed an opinion on the matter. All I pointed out was that at face value the Walter Mills article which you drew upon for inspiration in fact critisises us for doing exactly what we are now doing at this moment....communicating facelessly by internet.

It's an interesting theory that Mills expounds but not that relevant to us RV builders because we probably tend to use the internet more for the dissemination of necessary technical information.

Cheers Bob
Click to expand...

CA,
Not to be agrumentative, but my intent of infusing that article into this discussion was to contrast what a close-knit "sub-culture" this group is and that the internet part was a catylst for more personal interaction, unlike many on the internet who remain disengenuous and anonomous and to whom I thought the author refered. The fact that every one of these blogs voiced acceptance and encouragement of a non-builder owner is another positive of this group.
 
I'd agree with Bill. The fact that most (like over 75%) of the people that use these forums sign their posts and/or fill out their profile really says something about the family nature of it.

Compaired to a group like Rec.Aviation:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.homebuilt/topics?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

...I think you'll find our group(s) are much more of a family - not just my forums also, but all of the RV-type lists and boards.

Best,
Doug
 
Mel said:
I think the point of the post was that some of these people "claim" to have built when they didn't, thereby accepting "awards" under false pretenses.
Click to expand...

Yes Mel, exactly.
 
I am a partner in an RV7A that I built. I also am a partner in an RV8 that we bought as well as a Glastar that I bought. As far as I can tell, no parts of my body get bigger or turn to brass when I fly the one that I built. If you want to build then build. If you want to fly then buy!

P.S. Same goes for tail dragger vs. nose dragger :^)
 
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