Don Patrick

Don Patrick

Well Known Member
Morning folks,

I'm a ways off yet to be buying or building an 0-360. I'm just researching and curious about everyones thoughts on either building an experimental kit engine like the Titan 0-360, or buying a new 0-360 or buying a used 0-360 and having it refurbished . I'm just a poor cop with 2 kids (my dear wife has allowed me to build!!) and am trying to build a plane over time.....I know that I will not settle for anything less than an 0-360, don't need or want an IO or constant speed for my RV-8.

Any comments, input, or good sources for an 0-360 that hasn't been "spanked" too hard or has had a prop strike would be welcomed. I have lots of time and want to research this as much as possible and value everyones input.

I am in Canada, but have no problem driving anywhere for a good deal. I do know the costs involved, but if I can save a little with a good engine...all is good!

Thanks


Don
 
Hi Don...

I, too, was poor and going through a divorce but I found a good engine by word of mouth, that had been taken out of a flipped Mooney, with 600 total hours.

My buddy found a good engine at Wentworth Aircraft salvage for $8,500 and it's flying in his -4....great engine.

What most builders don't realize, is that most don't fly more than 100 hours a year, so an engine with 1200 hours still has around 1000 hours left, during which time they can save for overhaul and learn how to do that themselves,

Best,
 
Buy or Build

For my RV-7 build project I bought an IO-360 ECI kit engine through an A&P who has a builder assist center here in Lubbock and over a weekend we (mostly he) put the engine together. With all new accessories I have less than $23,000.00 in the engine. An O-360 should come out a few thousand cheaper. If or when I need another IO-360 I will do it again.

In contrast I bought a core engine for my RV-10 (IO-540) broke it down, sent off all the major parts to certified engine repair shops for overhaul, bought new bearings and non-reuseable parts, along with new ECI cylinder assemblies. The total cost for the overhaul came to just under $25,000.00. I ended up with a zero time engine that so far has given me really good service. If ECI ever come out with a kit 540 engine they will get my business verses a core rebuild. The biggest problem I ran into with the core re-build was the company I bought my core from, who guaranteed the crankshaft as being good tried to pawn off an airboat crankshaft on me that had been overhauled and wouldn't pass and then tried to pawn off an overhauled crankshaft that had a yellow tag but no reputable shop would have signed it off. After putting my lawyer skills to work and threatening to sue they made good on the crankshaft but if I had not been an attorney I am reasonable sure that I would have gotten taken. A replacement core crankshaft for a 540 engine would have doubled the cost of the core engine purchase. Buying a core engine from anybody other than a reputable company who guarantees the crankshaft is a really big gamble. Also buying an overhauled engine from an overhauler that doesn't has a proven track record in the RV community is also running a pretty big risk. Having worked with two really good engine re-builders I have learned a lot of things that can go wrong with an engine re-build if not done really well.

Hope this helps.



Don Patrick said:
Morning folks,

I'm a ways off yet to be buying or building an 0-360. I'm just researching and curious about everyones thoughts on either building an experimental kit engine like the Titan 0-360, or buying a new 0-360 or buying a used 0-360 and having it refurbished . I'm just a poor cop with 2 kids (my dear wife has allowed me to build!!) and am trying to build a plane over time.....I know that I will not settle for anything less than an 0-360, don't need or want an IO or constant speed for my RV-8.

Any comments, input, or good sources for an 0-360 that hasn't been "spanked" too hard or has had a prop strike would be welcomed. I have lots of time and want to research this as much as possible and value everyones input.

I am in Canada, but have no problem driving anywhere for a good deal. I do know the costs involved, but if I can save a little with a good engine...all is good!

Thanks


Don
Click to expand...
 
How to evaluate

I'm also considering engine options, and it seems like a pretty attractive to find a proven mid-time O-360. There's something to be said for not having to break in an engine as well as test the plane.

Question for the group, what kind of due diligence is appropriate for an engine that seems to be a good deal? I am hoping to eventually find an engine with less than 1000 hours... if I were to find one with logs, no prop strike, proper storage, what would I have an A&P look for to check it out? When I get it, what kind of inspections make sense before I fly?

More commentary much appreciated.

Josh
 
Hi Josh...

Have him check for AD compliance e.g. the oil pump on most older models had to be replaced and an oil hole drilled in the rear case...not a big deal, really....we had an A@P buddy of ours do ours on the 0-360, while I assisted.

A borescope inspection of the cylinders and a compression check are needed.
If you could find one still mounted on an airplane and see it run is a big advantage as well.

Best,
 
education

In addition to the comments above, I would suggest that any first time engine buyer or builder be very familiar with (aka read thoroughly) two sources:

Sky Ranch Engineering Manual

Lycoming Flyer Key Reprints.

Just my opinion.
Dave A.
6Abuild
 
Don,

IMO, it really depends on your predilection and budget. Like Dav1111, I built an engine through a builder assist program at a reputable engine shop (Eagle Engines, Redding, CA). Took about a day and a half. I liked doing this as I now have intimate knowledge of the engine and would not hesitate to pull it apart if necessary. And it's new (or was before I started flying it). Mine was a Superior, but any of these places probably do a really nice job. I would do it again if I needed/wanted a new engine.

If you're more limited by budget, a used engine with a proper inspection is just as good of a way to go, especially if you have time to find a good buy.

greg
 
Thanks for all of the great information folks. I've come across a couple of engines and here are the details:

O-360 Prop strike at landing at low rpm, so a bit of work with that one. Crankshaft has been checked and dialed within limits.

2 O-320's, twin was doing circuits for 3 hours, ran out of gas and forced onto the field..engines were windmilling on impact..

IO-320 out of fuel, off field landing and windmilling...

All are "reasonably" priced ($6-7, grand) with the obvious checks and balances, with the potential to replace some parts (which I expect for the O-360).

I know a few AME's that can do the work at a reasonable cost, so, buying new won't be happening. Realistically, I'd be putting hopefully $100-150 hours a year on it.

I'm told that a lycoming crankshaft may bend with a prop strike, but may still be good to go after the necessary checks??

I shouldn't have said that I would not move from an O-360...I may be persuaded into an O-320..:eek:

Thoughts?

I have a lot to learn about engines...that's a given!

Cheers.

Don
 
Don Patrick said:
Thanks for all of the great information folks. I've come across a couple of engines and here are the details:

O-360 Prop strike at landing at low rpm, so a bit of work with that one. Crankshaft has been checked and dialed within limits.
Click to expand...

Not sure what "checked" involves, but before I bought a prop-strike engine I would want assurance the crank would pass a magnaflux inspection to be sure it wasn't cracked. Just making sure the prop flange doesn't have any runout isn't a guarantee the crank doesn't have fatigue cracks.

That is why most good engine folks insist on a complete engine teardown following a prop strike.

Another thing to check on a used engine is cam lobe wear. This usually occurs due to inactivity as corrosion attacks the cam followers and erodes the cam lobes. You have to remove at least one cylinder in order to check the lobes. Here is what one of the lifters looked like on my engine:

overhaul-6.jpg


And the cam:

overhaul-13.jpg


This was an engine that was still running and had "good" logs (1250 hrs).

The entire engine rebuild story is here:

http://thervjournal.com/overhaul.htm
 
Thanks Sam...I just read your article...much to consider. I'm probably going to be bringing along a friend (AME) who can have a good look the engine. I certainly will be looking for assurances on the crank, but in any event, your absolutlely right and the case will be split and the guts inspected for a potential rebuild.

I'm fortunate that my father is an NDT technician and has all of his tickets for LPI, MPI, xray and all that good stuff....he's been doing it for 35 years on aircraft and engines, and I'm sure he'll do it for free;)
 
Magna flux that crank!

Most of you have probably heard about the Lancair IV-P that killed the jogger while making an emergency landing at Hattaras in South Carolina. The pilot is a fellow member in our chapter and very meticulous. The engine was purchased as an IRAN from Penn-Yan, having been replaced to upgrade the previous plane to a turbine. It had about 500 hrs, I recall. The emergency landing was caused by the crank shearing off at the hub, which was obvious when the prop fell off :eek:. The details are still a bit sketchy, but it appears that the engine had no reported prop strike, which resulted in the IRAN inspection not requiring a complete tear-down and crank NDI inspection. Subsequent investigation is leaning toward an unreported prop strike.

Bottom line is to make sure an exhaustive inspection is performed including disassembly and NDI (magna-flux) of the crank if a prop strike is reported or suspected. Not everyone out there places your safety above their wallet. Even a reputable engine overhaul facility can be fooled.

Caveat emptor :cool:
 
$$$ per Hour

When I was looking for my replacement engine Radomir (fellow VAF member) pointed out that paying $7500 for a used thousand hour engine was the same as paying $15000 for a zero time ECi kit engine.

Will I fly off all 2000 hours on my new engine, who knows but I was flying more than 200 hours a year with the old engine.

So, IF you can swing the $15K for a new kit, go that route. If $7.5K is your budget, call Wentworth. I say Wentworth because they do stand behind their engines. Check the logs carefully but as the others have alluded to, buyer beware.
 
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