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william weesner

how many have built their own lyclone?
 
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- Piston-ring compressor.
- Ring filing tool (for setting ring end-gaps).
- Cylinder-base-nut wrench of appropriate size/type.
- A valve-spring compression tool makes installing the valve-spring keepers a whole lot easier, but it's possible to do without.
- A wooden stand to put the jugs over while you install the valves & springs.
- Some sort of plastic cover to bolt over the cylinder holes in the cases, that will keep crap out of the cases and also support the rods.
- Feeler gauge set.
- All the required "consumables"; i.e. assembly lube, DC4, RTV, silk thread, anti-seize, etc.
- Last thing I can think of, and the most important... an up-to-date Lycoming Direct-Drive Engine Overhaul Manual and all the Lycoming Service Instructions, Service Bulletins, and AD's for the engine type you're building.
 
I agree with all of the items Ken described.
I built up the ECI clone (Titan) and my thoughts are as follows:
The engine components are provided by ECI, but there are a lot of parts that need to be gathered up or provided by the dealer you purchase the kit through, such as hardware...nuts, bolts, washers, etc. Most of this can be gotten locally, since it is grade 8 hardware, but it is nice to get their hardware kit. Other than that, there were only a few items that were missing or needed and ECI was good about providing them. The dealer was also very easy to work with and they also provided the mags, fuel injection system, etc.
All of the consumables are more expensive than you think and you have to get a lot more than you need. I used LPM's recommendation for sealing the parting halves of the crank case (silk thread w/ permatex ?? on one side and Locktite ?? on the other side) and I did have to shop around to find it.
If you have a local AP or IA around to ask for advice, do it. Also, try to get someone to do a final inspection as you are closing things up....just in case.
Basic tools include good torque wrenches...one to do inch pounds for the smaller bolts and a larger one for the cylinder nuts.
Basic set of wrenches, screw drivers, etc.
Safety wire pliers, a buzz box for timing the mags.
You will need to paint the engine parts, so you need painting equipment.
An engine stand is helpful, but you could also build a wooden table, use 3/4" plywood for the top and 2x4 legs, doubled up, about 30" or so high. Don't build it too high. Cut a center hole, and some flange bolt holes around it, to bolt the crank to. This works well...I have done this on 2 or 3 engines. I made it 2' by 4', so it provides for some working space to hold tools, etc.
Plug gapping tools, feeler gauges, ring compressor, etc. that Ken listed are also necessary.
The overhaul manual is pretty basic, but does have all of the information you need, just make sure you have all of the updates. ECI does not provide a manual, they say to use the Lycoming OH manual. Support from the dealer will be available. Use them.
Putting these things together is not rocket science and if you take your time you should not have a problem.
 
Cost savings?

Between tools and consumables, is there any net cost savings over just buying it whole? I love the idea of assembling my own just for the experience, but it's hard to justify if it ends up costing more.
 
I used AERO inc, in Granite City, IL. They are listed in ECI's web site.

AERO's number is 800 362-3044 (Ext 228 for Jesse, who does the new engine kits.)

I found the cost of building was substantially less than having them do it, even after buying all the stuff you need. Plus, you then have left overs!
 
Leftovers?

I found the cost of building was substantially less than having them do it, even after buying all the stuff you need. Plus, you then have left overs!

I wouldn't think "leftovers" are a good thing after building an engine - especially strange and important looking leftovers!
What exactly do you mean by leftovers?

Also- Cost substantially less than what, buying the same thing from Van's?
 
N674P said:
I wouldn't think "leftovers" are a good thing after building an engine - especially strange and important looking leftovers!
What exactly do you mean by leftovers?
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I think he meant the tools and the expendables.
 
If the cylinders are already setup like mine were when I built it (lyc core that was checked, yellow tagged, etc) the only things I had to use were basic socket set, torque wrenches, safety wire pliers, etc....

Only special tools were cylinder wrenches. Ring compressor is nice, but not required. Most of the cheapy ones from Pep Boys or whatever will only go to 5" bore and lyc's are 5.125". It is a mild pain, but you can do them by hand.

You need silk thread, the special $20 loctite (515 maybe, can't remember?) and a lycoming overhaul manual for torque orders and specs.

Setting timing and the like depends on what ignition you have.

You mileage may vary but I think people make WAY to big a deal out of building these.

Scott
#90598 - N598SD Flying - 21.9 hrs
 
For those of you who have built from a kit, what was your total cost then? I'd love to build the engine (especially since I have an A&P brother-in-law). If it's a lot cheaper than a new clone, how much cheaper? What about the issue of warranty?
 
Warranty

If you decide to assemble your own engine, the only warranty you're going to get is the parts warranty which in all but a few special instances, is one year FROM DATE OF SALE. Since you are supplying the labor, how are you going to warranty yourself? There is an answer, think about it...
 
Allen Barrett said:
If you decide to assemble your own engine, the only warranty you're going to get is the parts warranty which in all but a few special instances, is one year FROM DATE OF SALE. Since you are supplying the labor, how are you going to warranty yourself? There is an answer, think about it...
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That's what I was driving at - that instead of getting a one year or three year warranty on an engine, you're getting nothing but parts. That's where the question of cost difference comes in. If you're only saving a few thousand dollars by building yourself, is that savings worth not having a warranty through a shop? If the savings by building yourself is $10k, then yes, maybe it's worth it even though you won't have a warranty. That's why I would like to know what the approximate cost of building one of these kits is - to find out what the actual trade off is in terms of cost savings vs. having a warranty.
 
The total cost of the ECI kit, 180 HP parallel valve w/FI, including the hardware, changing sumps to a horiz FI system and all the expendables (oil, STP, permatex, etc.) not including tools was right at $20K. (About a year ago.) Compare that to VAN's Lycoming cost for the savings. Building it saved about $2K, if I remember correctly and as long as I get the warranty on parts, I'm good to go.
Everyone will have their own take on warranty, but to me, being a kit builder, I would like to build and understand as much of the plane as possible.
Nobody is wrong in this discussion, you have to decide how you want to spend your money and what amount of work you want to do and then just do it.
 
Another consideration

Taxes....this is one of the things I have been considering carefully when I think about my engine. In Texas the sales tax is 8.5% - that adds on another $1700 when I buy an engine here - for instance at Superior. If I buy all the parts through the mail and out of state - there will be no sales tax. So that pushes the savings up to @ $3500! I had been considering going through AeroSport - but then they have to report where that engine is going. I would expect our state treasurer may be real interested too.

Just curious, what do you think you need waranteed if you build it yourself? You will know how to repair it, and from what I understand it wouldn't be that difficult. You will get the parts for free if it fails in the first year, then it is just your time.

Stewart - still on the fence where to buy, but looking real hard....
 
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7pilot said:
If I buy all the parts through the mail and out of state - there will be no sales tax. So that pushes the savings up to @ $3500! I had been considering going through AeroSport - but then they have to report where that engine is going. I would expect our state treasurer may be real interested too.

Just curious, what do you think you need waranteed if you build it yourself? You will know how to repair it, and from what I understand it wouldn't be that difficult. You will get the parts for free if it fails in the first year, then it is just your time.
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I don't know about Texas, but here in California the taxman wants his dough for anything you buy and use here. They call it use tax rather than sales tax if you buy it elsewhere.

Regarding the parts warrantee, I would guess that only defective parts are covered, not the parts that are destroyed by them when things go kablooey.
 
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7pilot said:
Just curious, what do you think you need waranteed if you build it yourself? You will know how to repair it, and from what I understand it wouldn't be that difficult. You will get the parts for free if it fails in the first year, then it is just your time.
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With the kit built engine, the only important warranty is the parts obviously. My concern has to do with how long that warranty lasts - if most parts warranties only last one year beyond purchase date, that's really pushing it for a lot of guys to finish up the plane and get the engine fired up and in the air. Sure, you know how to repair the engine if a part fails, but unless you got the engine hung and in the air immediately, there may be nothing left of your parts warranty. That's all I was thinking.

That being said, personally, I don't think I really care. I really would like to build my engine vs. buy one from a shop. I'm just suggesting that a parts warranty may not do you much good by the time you're ready to fire the engine up. Replacing parts will probably be on your dime. Now, with most pro-built engines this will probably be the case as well. Although, I thought I had read somewhere that some builders warranty their engines for one year from first start, and one even warranties for 3 years.
 
Buit Your Own - Warranty

Two things:

1) Some states, including Oklahoma have eliminated sales tax on aircraft parts sales, which happens to include the outright sale of aircraft engines. They still tax pilot supplies, but even if you buy a gasket from an OK engine shop there's no sales tax.

2) Regarding warranty, even if the parts warranty is 3, 4 or 5 years, if the parts manufacturer determines that the parts failed due to "improper assembly", you are on your own.
 
Still stirring

The big issue is going to be WHO the parts manufacturer believes is at fault, heaven forbid a catastrofic failure occurs. Will they side with a professional shop that has built countless engines of the type in question, or are they going to side with the owner, builder experiencing his first taste of engine building?

Which way do the rod nuts go on? Wait! Are these rod nuts or cylinder base nuts? Sure look the same to me! What's this castle nut torque to? WHERE DOES IT GO, AND WHEN DO I PUT IT THERE?

BTW, the crankcase acts as the bearing for the camshaft. Automotive engines (chevy's and fords etc) are cast iron blocks so they have to have a soft 'type' bearing for the camshaft. Steel on steel won't work nor will aluminum on aluminum.

Any engine shop worth doing business with will stand behind their product. Most will bend over backwards to ensure you remain satisfied even after the warranty period is over as long as they are convinced that the issue is due to their negligence.
 
Oh yeah one more thing for the people thinking of doing this, I consider my lycoming engine parts manual for my engine as important as the overhaul manual was. That one is cheap and was invaluable.

Scott
#90598 - N598SD Flying - 23 hrs
 
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