Jeff R

Jeff R

Well Known Member
I am starting to get serious with making an engine selection for my 9A. I have a retired friend who is an A&P, Tech Counselor and former DAR who has volunteered to help me assemble an engine from a kit of parts if I can get all the parts. When I search for kit engines, however, I only find places where a parts supplier will supply a kit of parts to a commercial engine builder. So, if I want to build up my own engine with the help of my friend, is there a supplier who will sell me the parts directly?

Now that I have asked the question, even with an experienced helper, does it make sense to build up your own engine? I mean, do commercial builders add any value when they build your engine, such as doing balancing, etc? Also, how much money might one be able to save by building up their own engine? Any other downsides to building up your own engine?
 
It absolutly makes sence to build your own up from parts, contact A.E.R.O. in stock. They have a link on the front page of VAF. Call the Granite City location and talk to Jesse. He'll be able to have an engine kit shipped to you from ECI. The picture below is the one I built and is hanging on the nose of my plane. I have a new O-360 assembled from a kit (not the one shown here) that I'm willing to let go for $19,750.00 plus shipping if anyone is interested.

enfr.jpg
 
I went this route in my -6A and it was really the most rewarding part of the project (other than flying).

I bought the runout core, securing a written guarantee that if the crank was bad the seller would provide a serviceable replacement. The IA helped me determine which components were serviceable and what needed replacement. I then shipped pieces all over the country based on ads from trade-a-plane. I opened an account with Superior for parts that needed replacing. I visited various booths at Oshkosh to take advantage of show specials.

If you elect to buy new cylinder assemblies (what I did) you reduce the complexity of the project quite a bit.

As long as the IA is willing to give you guidance along the way, you can save quite a bit of money and remove a lot of the mystery about your engine.

John Allen
 
Rivethead mentioned where to get one. ECI kit is already balanced.... so you don't have to worry about that.

And the only (that I can think of) downside is lack of warranty. Yes, you'll get warranty on parts.. but not engine assembly. If something goes wrong, it can be costly. Though there are many, many upsides to doing so... I'd definitely strongly recommend having some sort of supervision/help from someone with experience.
 
Just want to echo the route of going to Jesse at www.aeroinstock.com. They were great to work with and I got an 0-360 kit for a little under $14k (shipped!). I still had to buy a carb, starter and electronic ignition. All in all I think I spent $17k for a complete brand new engine & a small portion of that went to the A&P I/A that helped me build it (OK, more like I helped him).

I think that if I would have used regular mags, I could have gotten a "data plate" and have a certified engine. But who wants regular mags?? (Just kidding!). :D
 
I purchased a runout engine and rebuilt it for my plane. I had the assistance of two AI and A&P's during the process. I learned quite a bit during the process. I'd do it again.
 
IO320 Cost Difference

I was originally thinking about going the kit engine route, however I read somewhere that there is very little cost benefit over Van's engine deals. Is that true?
 
These are really old numbers (about three years), but I recall that the difference between and ECI kit and having Mattituck build the ECI kit with a few of their own modifications (things they have learned over the years to prevent oil leaks for instance) was about $2K. Yeas, that's a lot of money, but I decided to let them do it that time, and I went up there to watch. I might very well tackle it myself next time, now that I have seen some of the techniques and gotten good instruction!

Paul
 
Depends on the ECI distributor...

Ironflight said:
These are really old numbers (about three years), but I recall that the difference between and ECI kit and having Mattituck build the ECI kit with a few of their own modifications (things they have learned over the years to prevent oil leaks for instance) was about $2K. Yeas, that's a lot of money, but I decided to let them do it that time, and I went up there to watch. I might very well tackle it myself next time, now that I have seen some of the techniques and gotten good instruction!

Paul
Click to expand...

Paul... I think the $2K difference is from ECI dealers who would rather sell you a completed engine instead of a kit.

Jesse at A.E.R.O. does not have an assembly shop, and, since he only sells kits, they seem to be discounted much more than the other ECI distributors.

My personal calculations are a bit unique since I have most accessories already, except for the carb. - but I think the difference is much closer to $5K for a "full" engine with an ECI kit from AERO. This estimate seems to fit in with Sonny's numbers above.

gil A
 
After attending Mattitucks workshop, I'm inclined to let a shop build my engine. The discussion during the workshop about clearances leads me to beleive that this is something I want done by someone/someplace who has access and experience to manufacture the best clearances. For example, one item discussed was the new clearance tolerancefor the piston to piston pin. It was .0008 - .0021. The mechanic explaining the process said it was their experience that .0008, while in spec, did not allow room for proper lubrication and more wear (metal) than desired would occur. If assembled at the high limit of the tolerance, .0021, experience has showed them that those parts would have proper lubrication from the get go and there would be almost no wear at all. This is just one example of what was shown to us during the workshop.

Mattituck takes kits like the ones from ECI and sends them into their inspection dept where all clearances and tolerances are verified. If they are not what they consider optimum, then the parts are replaced or machined to obtain the proper ones.

To me, it is worth the extra 2K or so to have this done. I'm sure there are many engines built that run fine from straight, non inspected kits. I also know from working in the areospace industry manufacturing jet engine parts that it would be impossible for most homebuilders to accurately verify the tolerances on the parts they have.

The actual assembly of aircraft engines looks to be very straight foward, and I think most of us could put the parts given together without much difficulty, but there is much more to these things than meets the eye.

I really enjoyed the post by another VAF member Captain Avgas concerning the "old" aircraft engine technology. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=25456

After attending Mattitucks workshop I am convinced that indeed the lycoming type engine is the perfect powerplant for light aircraft, and is manufactured to a very high degree of precision and refinement.

My hat's off to those who want to reinvent the wheel, (auto engine folks) but I'd rather fly :)
 
Superior sells a kit version of their engine. Savings is not much, especially if you have to hire help to assemble it. However, they also have a build school (which I am attending in March) which allows you to build your own engine under their guidance. Then they run it through their test cell and ship it to you after it has passed their final inspection. Adds $1k to the cost, but I figure that's probably the cheapest powerplant class I'll find. They get a lot of good reviews on their program. www.superiorairparts.com
 
Finished engine rocks!

Hello fellow builders,

At the "Aero 2007" in Friedrichshafen, I ordered an OX-320 through a German Company in Munich. For $ 21.300,- (I have to pay in $, not EUR, which is good considering the Exchange rate ! :cool:) For that money, they supply a brand new ECI-Titan OX-320 with dual electronic ignition and fuel injection, prepared for a CS-prop! They will put it on the test stand for me to watch and after a couple of hours of testing, they will ?pickle? it and I can take it home in my car. They also give a 12 month guaranty, from first flight (which may be 1 to 1,5 years from now).

Buying an engine from Vans would have been the second option, but the transport costs, import taxes, customs, etc, would add a lot of money to the initial buying price of $ 24.450,- !!. :eek:

A kit engine must be really cheap to beat that price, especially without ?Testing on the stand?, ?Long time conservation?, and ?1 year Guaranty? !
OK, Building it yourself may be fun, but do not forget to add the cost of various tools you may not have. :confused:

However, the main question is: are you really going to fly it with confidence on its first flight, if it has never been on a test stand, and you, the builder, being an amateur engine builder? :eek:

I will be driving down to Munich in 2 or 3 weeks to witness the testing of my engine and take it home. I am really looking forward to that! :D

Regards, Tonny
 
my experience on kit engine build

Not to examine the ECI vs. Superior or roller vs. hydraulic lifter. I can tell you that I chose to build the ECI IO360 kit with an experienced local IA. I will also disclose that I am an AP with engine build experience. Building your own engine from a kit of new parts is very rewarding but has very different challanges than building our planes. ECI engines come balanced but tolerances must be check and complied with such as ring gap etc... so having another set of skilled eyes is a must. No matter which manufacturer you decide to use, I encourage you to be part of the process, you will not regret it!
 
I want to echo the last post about tolerances. Just because the parts come to you seemingly ready to go doesn't mean they are. You should check ring gaps and Plastigauge the bearings at least. I also went so far as to have the conecting rods checked for round. But that certainly wasn't all that was done. On the first engine I built (the one pictured by me in the first page of this thread) the valve seats looked like they were all wash boarded. I re-lapped every one of them with my own loose carbide grains mixed in oil down to 600 grit. It was a pain in the *-* to clean up but worth it. During an engine build if you don't know the size or shape of something when you fit it in place you never will once its all bolted up.

titan2.jpg
 
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ECI

I assembled an ECI from Jesse at AERO through my local dealer. Paid $12.5k for the engine. Carb, mags, fastener kit, shipping and fuel pump added another $3.5k.
The mechanic at my dealer verified correct assembly of the crank and rods. Another mechanic and I assembled the case halves. Using the Lyc overhaul manual as reference, I verified and logged all clearances such as ring gap and rocker-to-valve distance.
The toughest part about the whole thing was figuring out which bolt and nut went where as their description is not noted anywhere. Instead of "engine case bolt" we get 1/4 -20 UNC.
I also used documentation from other builders obtained from this and other web sites as a reference.

It's not rocket surgery,
Steve
 
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