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wrongway john

Well Known Member
At least one other kitplane manufacturer is doing this in that amount of time at their factory, and wondering if anyone knows if Van’s has considered something similar as well.

Glasair Aviation has the owner of the kit working 11 days for 10 hours a day and is ready to taxi during that time. It’s not cheap, $20,000 for that program, but for a $180,000 kit, perhaps it is in line. The FAA says it meets the 51% legal requirement.

I understand other kitplane manufacturers also have some QB programs too, but last about 5 weeks with the owner working 7 days a week, which is still quite good.

We’ve discussed building more efficiently in other threads here on VAF, but what are we to make of the legal aspects? A poster on another board pointed out this when dealing with Experimental Certificates 21.191 it states:

21.191(h) Operating primary kit-built aircraft. Operating a primary category aircraft that meets the criteria of 21.34(a)(1) that was assembled by a person from a kit manufactured by the holder of a production certificate for that kit without the supervision and quality control of the production certificate holder under 21.184(a).
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Have the new revisions in 2009 to the EAA rules done away with this, or are some of us misunderstanding what this means?
 
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21.191(h) refers to "Primary" category aircraft. This has nothing to do with amateur-built aircraft. Amateur-built aircraft fall under 21.191(g).
 
It's been done, right?

Although the purpose was different, this has kinda been done, right? I thought I heard that to market the RV-12, Van's had done a super-quick-build of one in about 10 days at Oshkosh.

So I guess my question is, even if Van's isn't interested in organizing a paid commercial builders-assist program like this, have any of the existing private builders-assist consultants (like Jay Pratt and the others) ever organized a blitz-build program? Heck, I think I'd be willing to take two weeks to volunteer as a free apprentice/helper on such a program, even on someone else's kit, just so I could see the whole build process from soup to nuts before Tyson and I start our own kit. I bet I'm not alone.

-- Stephen
 
My first thought was that I would not want to fly in an experimental that had been built for such a stunt. Sure, we don't want to take forever building but rushing would, IMHO, be worse with the increased chance to make errors.

Then I counted the hours: 110 builder hours? I don't know the kit in question but I'm not sure that's enough for the structural build, much less the avionics and firewall-forward. It certainly cannot be done for an RV. I seem to recall sometime back where a team of two retired guys built a slow-build in 3 months, working full time on the project; that may be a record.

Anyway, while I deplore my current lack of progress on the -10 (school's out next week), I'm in as much for the building as the flying. I really don't want it to be over too quickly.
 
How fast to build a QB...

Even in the most basic form and no paint, I can't imagine putting together a QB in less than a 1,000 hrs of hands on building. So at 10 hrs a day, that's 100 days. If a person worked that much on it 7 days a week.... you'd be hating it and everyone around you!! LOL
 
flion said:
Then I counted the hours: 110 builder hours? I don't know the kit in question but I'm not sure that's enough for the structural build, much less the avionics and firewall-forward. It certainly cannot be done for an RV. I seem to recall sometime back where a team of two retired guys built a slow-build in 3 months, working full time on the project; that may be a record.
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The article states in the OP link that it does include the FWF as well. I don?t understand it either, and those helpers I?m sure are doing a lot more than just giving guidance. The FAA seems to be fine with it though, and many have went through the program.

fatherson said:
So I guess my question is, even if Van's isn't interested in organizing a paid commercial builders-assist program like this, have any of the existing private builders-assist consultants (like Jay Pratt and the others) ever organized a blitz-build program?
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I talked to him over the phone a couple of days ago to see what his RV Central offers. I have a standard 4 kit, and wanted to rent out space and do the most of the labor myself, while he or some other qualified builder just kept an eye on me, while offering guidance and advice along the way. For now, anyway, the way I understand his operations, is that he takes over some aspect of it.

If someone ever offered up some kind of a Van?s Super Building Center near me, I?d participate in such a program if offered up at a reasonable price.

I think I would prefer at least a six week program for the AF though, or maybe even two to three months would be fine. I feel like I would learn more that way, and I want to do most of my labor. 11 days would seem like a blur. Just don?t want the build to get dragged out over many, many years either, before the ole medical creeps in and says, surprise! If they also offered up a FWF program, I?d consider it as well.
 
I looked into the Glastar two weeks to taxi program for my old man. The large difference between the Glastar and an RV is the Glastar fuselage is a fiberglass molding over a tubular fuselage. Not NEARLY the construction required for the RV. The wings are largely done too, so it's major component assembly, hang the engine, wire the avionics and electrical, and fly away.

In the end you have almost $200K into fast C-170. Sweet plane, but the end result is way overpriced IMHO. YMMV.
 
fatherson said:
Although the purpose was different, this has kinda been done, right? I thought I heard that to market the RV-12, Van's had done a super-quick-build of one in about 10 days at Oshkosh.
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I have not heard of this actually being done. As I understand it, the RV-12 "Super Quick Build" that was at the Van's tent this year was referred to in that way because it was extremely complete. maybe it was built super fast, but I didn't hear that part. It was not worked on at Oshkosh, of that I am pretty sure (I saw it every day from before the show started, and it never changed....except for the added drool...)

Paul
 
I built my standard kit -8 from start to flying (including paint) and lots of cockpit mods in exactly 23 months without any other help (except good advice from this forum). The key is doing a little everyday.

My opinion is that the time between building was as important to the building itself as it provided opportunity to THINK and ensure all those pieces ended up in the right place - especially when mods are considered.

I wouldn't want anything to do with a plane built in two weeks regardless who is building it.

Ken
 
No joy

Well, I guess even a little extra thought on my part before posting would have saved me from suggesting the impossible.

I suppose I was thinking of a blitz-build in the way Habitat for Humanity blitz-builds a house: several experienced specialists, working on many parallel tasks simultaneously, and supplemented by lots of untrained volunteers. But I also should have remembered a saying we use in software engineering whenever an executive wants to throw manpower at a product just so it can be rushed out the door: "you can't make a baby in a month by getting nine women pregnant."

And on the quality and safety front, I should have realized there was something wrong with my idea when I wanted to build someone else's plane fast before building my own plane slowly, methodically, and carefully. What was I thinking?

-- Stephen
 
RV8R999 said:
I built my standard kit -8 from start to flying (including paint) and lots of cockpit mods in exactly 23 months without any other help (except good advice from this forum). The key is doing a little everyday.

My opinion is that the time between building was as important to the building itself as it provided opportunity to THINK and ensure all those pieces ended up in the right place - especially when mods are considered.

I wouldn't want anything to do with a plane built in two weeks regardless who is building it.

Ken
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I try to do a little every day, but I keep coming across things that need more cash!!! Need that bonus money!!!

The big selling point of the two week program is you build it at the factory, with the Glasair techs leading you along the way, in the factory, with all the professional expertise and their tools at your disposal. If cash isn't a factor I personally think it's a great plan. I would think you'd have a pretty nice product at the end, for the cash you spent anyway. Personally for that kind of $$$, I'd buy a C-185 and still have a wad left over for a few hudred hours of Avgas.
 
Quick-build, or no-build?

ahem,
pardon me for saying what many must be thinking. We are fortunate to be able to build with the amount of freedom that we enjoy. Why mess with that.... to this nth degree?
I didn't have time to build either, so I bought one of the many fine examples already flying, and can customize it to my hearts ( and wallet's) content!
The commercial completion centres, whether the actual kit supplier or not, seem to be filling a need, so I'm not judging. I'm sure the final product is as good or better than the average builder.
What I think you miss with this process is the 'thinking' time......yes, that period spent on sofa cushions on sawhorses making noises! Then what a surprise when you decide you really DID want a tip-up, or EFIS, or whatever.
 
I?m glad it?s another option available, but thus far, these are priced through the roof, and those with that kind of money are not going to have any problem getting in the air.

Somewhere between a quick build center, and the slow road of many years of building at home, it would be nice to find places where you could go to rent out a space, and have a TC around at all times that is available and maybe pay a reasonable charge for. And if you wanted some experienced helper or two at times, hopefully there would be some of them around too that you could hire out for another reasonable charge without it busting your bank account.

The rule of thumb used to be that a kit often went though X number of builders before it ever got completed. There are still too many kits that get sold off, the builder long having given up the dream, or finally it took so long that he no longer qualified for his medical.

So that?s why I think it?s a niche that still needs to be filled. I imagine some of the better EAA chapters do come close for those lucky enough to have those.
 
Brantel said:
I think that is what Jay does at RV Central....

http://www.vansairforce.net/rvcentral.htm
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I don?t think so. As I stated, I called his place a couple of days ago. He takes on a certain aspect for you of him doing the work at X amount an hour. I specifically inquired for my 4 where I wanted to rent out a space and do most of the labor, and just have a TC or some other qualified person around to keep an eye on things.
 
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