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RV8R999

Well Known Member
I'm maybe 3 weeks away from being ready for final inspection and have been spending some time getting all the paperwork in order.

I've taken over a thousand pictures during the build and have about 30 pages of log entries but honestly I did not detail every single thing I did and often my entries were very general in nature such as "today I bled the brakes, inspected the cockpit, blah, blah, blah" that sort of thing. I did however check-off every item in the instruction manual and made notes when I deviated. I also signed and dated every page. My thought was to include the manual as an appendix to the more general stuff I wrote along the way. Thoughts on this?

I'll print all the pictures out as well but many are incorporated into the general log already. What I don't have is an abundance of pictures with me in the shot (I was the one taking the photo). I probably have 30 or so with me in them. Any issues with this? What questions have you been asked by the inspector to prove you in fact built your plane?

I know my wife and kids would happily explain to him how much time I spent doing so :)

Thanks!
 
Ken,

You can check with your DAR to see what he expects, but to me, it sure sounds like you have plenty! My DAR knew from seeing me post on the internet that I had built it, and I don't recall that he looked at my log (I just had it on a laptop) when we licensed the plane.

When I went to the FSDO for my Repairman's Certificate, I brought along the laptop to show my log (a spreadsheet with date, what I did that day, and hours spent) and photo album, but the inspector spent most of the time talking about guys that worked for me that he had flown with in the past, and when we'd finished kibitzing, he filled out my temporary form. Never looked at the log. Of course, I had a letter of recommendation from Mel, and maybe that was all he really needed. ;)

Paul
 
My FAA inspector looked at my build log. He was more interested in photos of me doing the work. He especially liked the pics of the unopened crates and me working. Try to highlight the pics that have you in them.
 
There are not specific requirements for the builder's log. All you need is some kind of log showing a chronological order of the build. Your inspector should be able to discern whether or not you built the aircraft after talking with you for about 10 minutes.
 
Mel said:
There are not specific requirements for the builder's log. All you need is some kind of log showing a chronological order of the build. Your inspector should be able to discern whether or not you built the aircraft after talking with you for about 10 minutes.
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Exactly. I'm sure each DAR is different, but mine also never really looked at my builder's log -- which was nothing more than a spiral notebook where I'd logged what I did each work session. Even though I carefully recorded each tiny, little thing I did over 13 years of construction, it took up an amazingly small number of pages.

As for pictures, I had some old 35mm prints from the early days, digital images on floppy discs, some on mini-CDs, more on CDs and then some on flash drives. I printed out a few pages of the digital pics and assembled them in a $5 photo album, along with the old prints.

Even though I was pictured in only a handful of the images, the DAR knew that I'd built it from the questions he asked. I think most would be aware of any serious deception on the part of the builder. If you built it, you'll know most of the answers.

And when I submitted my application for the repairman's certificate, it turned out that the FAA guy used to be my neighbor! He stopped by early on in the build process and saw what I was doing, so he had a pretty good idea that I was the builder. He didn't really go over my logs or pictures with any enthusiasm, either.

I wouldn't worry about it. Just make sure that all of your other paperwork is in order.
 
The airworthiness inspection doesn't really focus on who built the aircraft (you might have bought a mostly completed kit). If your pictures help show that the aircraft was built with good practices, then they will be just fine. When in doubt, consult your DAR. I had failed to keep a good log but I had a website with photos and a folder with many hundreds more, both of which got burned to a DVD and sent to my DAR.

The repairman's certificate requires more 'you' in the pictures but, like you, I was limited in what I had. After all, how could I take pictures of myself working? I tried to get others to get shots of me working but not all their shots came out well (new point and shoot digital cameras go a long way toward fixing these kind of problems), so I ended up with only a small percentage of the photos having me in them. However, since they were scattered through the build and usually surrounded by other photos that made it clear that I was the one doing the work, the FSDO had no problem with their scarcity when I applied for my repairman's certificate.
 
Ken, first of all good luck. My DAR did not ask to even see my builders log but then again he had followed my build on the internet. When I visited to get my repairman's cert. the two FAA reps sat down with me and we ended up just talking homebuilts and RV's. It became pretty obvious they were seeing just how much I knew of building but it really was just a fun conversation. We got on my build website to reference a couple of things they wanted to see about the RV build. No problem, if you built it, it will show.
 
I wonder how many builders actually keep a log; I'm not one of them and know very few that did.

When inspection time comes around, I'll look for pictures and I know very few will have me in them because I'm working on this alone. Pictures don't prove much anyhow, I could have a hired crew come out and do the work and have a bunch of pictures of myself posing while I do some work; having help would make it easier for me to be in the pictures!
 
A word of caution!

Paul Thomas said:
I wonder how many builders actually keep a log; I'm not one of them and know very few that did.

When inspection time comes around, I'll look for pictures and I know very few will have me in them because I'm working on this alone. Pictures don't prove much anyhow, I could have a hired crew come out and do the work and have a bunch of pictures of myself posing while I do some work; having help would make it easier for me to be in the pictures!
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I would caution you that even though we sometimes don't ask to look at you builder's log, you ARE required to have one. If you don't, your airworthiness certificate MAY be denied.
See FAA Order 8130.2F, paragraph 151(e)(3)(b).
 
Yes, but the requirements for that log are pretty vague. I seem to recall that you could get by with a few entries for closing the main structures, etc., which could easily be created (or even 'fudged') anytime.

By the way, I am an advocate for lots of logging. My first build, I took lots of pictures, which I refer to often as I maintain the aircraft and work on the next one. I also started a well-intentioned website but didn't keep enough text in there to satisfy me. This time, I'm doing even more photos but I'm also keeping a log using KitLog Pro. Most entries are pretty terse but I'm trying to note where I deviate from the plans and document my equipment installations so I can replicate stuff if I need to later ... or at least remind myself what the hey I was thinking of at the time. You're not doing it for the Man, you're doing it for yourself.
 
Mel said:
I would caution you that even though we sometimes don't ask to look at you builder's log, you ARE required to have one. If you don't, your airworthiness certificate MAY be denied.
See FAA Order 8130.2F, paragraph 151(e)(3)(b).
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Does checking off the pages on the construction manual counts as a builder log? Does it require to be dated? What exactly should I log? I've seen a few builders logs, and their DAR must have been lenient.

Once I get into systems and items that are important for maintenance, I'll start a detailed maintenance manual, which arguably, will double as a log.
At this point in the construction, anyone looking at the plans, construction manual, and the airplane will know that someone riveted the tanks together and used Proseal. When I deviate from the construction manual, it's a noteworthy even and gets entered in the instruction manual.

I don't see the need to write:
Monday: Prosealed the outer ribs on the left main tank. I used 77 grams on the the leftmost rib and 66 on the innermost rib. I then cleaned everything with MEK. I drilled out two rivet because, while in spec, I didn't like them. I have no clue how long it took because I got there when I felt like it and left once the job was done.

I tried to keep track of how much time I was spending in the shop and couldn't do it accurately, so I stopped. Frankly, I don't care; it will take as long as it takes. Paperwork and shop time don't mix in my world.
 
Requirement for the builder's log is VERY liberal. You only need to show some kind of chronological order of the build.
 
Mel said:
Requirement for the builder's log is VERY liberal. You only need to show some kind of chronological order of the build.
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So ordered pictures in addition to the construction manual would satisfy the requirement even if they're not dated?
 
The section Mel referenced in 8130.2F:
__________________________

e. Proper Documentation. Amateur builder(s) need to be able to provide adequate and sufficient documentation to detail the construction and inspections of their aircraft.

(1) These records need to clearly indicate what was fabricated, assembled, or inspected, by whom, and the date the activity was performed.

(2) Documentation should clearly show who performed the task(s), describe when and where the tasks were performed, depict the methods of acceptable aeronautical construction and practices, and document the use of commercial and noncommercial assistance.

(3) The FAA must be provided with sufficient information to make a major portion determination. This documentation may include the following:

(a) The Amateur-Built Aircraft Fabrication and Assembly Checklist (2009).
(b) Comprehensive builder?s logs in any format, to include photographs of all the steps included in each of the listed tasks in the Amateur-Builder Aircraft Fabrication and Assembly Checklist (2009), materials and techniques used in construction, as well as dates, locations, and detailed descriptions.
(c) Photographs/video/DVD.
(d) Drawings and engineering specifications.
(e) Kit manufacturer?s data, when necessary.
(f) Relevant documentation (for example, plans) and references (for example, handbooks) used.
(g) Documentation concerning any commercial assistance used, including receipts.
(h) Documentation concerning any non-commercial assistance used.
(i) Part inventories and histories.
(j) Receipts and catalogs.
 
Thanks Dan. I can probably reconstruct the log fairly accurately. I tried to log the hours as I worked on the tail and have dated pictures for the wings construction; it's been much easier in the past year thanks to the iPhone.

I had never read 8130.2F and I'm clearly not in compliance with part (2); I'll correct that and create a nice log.

Mel: Thanks for always sharing your wisdom regarding DAR inspections.
 
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