[Rabidsnipe]

I'm currently taking flight training at Guthrie-Edmond Regional Airport; I'd also like to build an airplane. So two questions I propose to you.

#1 As I'm sure all of you can understand, I'm of course chomping at the bit to get started with building. I don't want to waste any precious time waiting around to start building. Further, I can't fly all the time. There are huge chunks of my time that are spent wasted, not flying but not building. But I'm torn as to whether I should complete my PPL before I start building. The building funds will probably come from the same bucket as the flying funds so doing them at the same time will probably just draw both of them out. Should I finish my PPL training before I start building? Or should I just lay that first $1200 down and start building and continue to take lessons, building while I'm not flying?

#2 This leads into my next question. I imagine that even if I finish my PPL before I start building that chances are, I'll be a low time pilot by the time I'm done (<100 hours). Can a low time pilot safely transition to an RV-7A or 9A? I imagine the answer is yes with enough transition training, but I wanted to hear it from you guys. Has anyone ever finished their PPL training in a Van's (obviously you'd have to have someone else fly off your 40 hours for you, so maybe that would be dumb)?

Just some questions from someone who is just dying to start building.


-Chase

 

[dav1111]

Wait to Build?

Dear Chase:

The biggest regret I have in life is not starting a build project 25-39 years ago.

For almost thirty years I bought and flew 5 different certified airplanes. If I had started building a two place RV back when Van's first started selling his kits I would have been a really happy camper a lot sooner. It wasn't until the year 2000 that I was introduced into the world of RV building. Now look at me.

 

[N131RV]

Easy to fly

Having flown a few different birds, I'd relate that in my experience, the A model RVs are very easy to fly.

Bear in mind, equipment and horsepower vary greatly from plane to plane. There are 200+ HP 6's (not for the faint of heart) and 160 hp 7's (pretty docile).

A low time pilot will find a 9A dead easy to fly. 7A probably just as easy. 6A is a bit more sensitive on the controls, but still pretty easy.

My bird was (and will be again) a real screamer in cruise, but dead simple to land.

YMMV, but the 6A,7A,9A and 10 models are very easy to fly (and the non A models are not all that difficult either).

 

[JHines]

Drawing out PPL wastes money

I'm currently taking flight training at Guthrie-Edmond Regional Airport; I'd also like to build an airplane. So two questions I propose to you. <SNIP>

The building funds will probably come from the same bucket as the flying funds so doing them at the same time will probably just draw both of them out. Should I finish my PPL training before I start building? Or should I just lay that first $1200 down and start building and continue to take lessons, building while I'm not flying?

I vote PPL first, for two reasons:

(1) build/train at the same time will likely waste your resources.

To get your PPL you need the minimum 40 hours PLUS enough compentency to pass the checkride. Realistically you need to fly 2-3 times per week in the period just before your checkride.

If you focus exclusively on doing all your homework, airwork, etc. and fly intensely, you can easily get the PPL knocked out in a relatively low number of hours (yes, 40 is possible) and a short amount of calendar time.

On the other hand, I have seen/heard of a lot of folks not training this intensely, and as a result, they end up needing 60-100 hours to get the PPL. At today's rental rates, that could easily be $5000 of wasted building money.

After the PPL, if you build while not flying, you will get rusty, BUT even though you will need BFRs, "knock the rust off" hours, and RV transition training, it will always amount to less time and money that what is required to get the certificate initially.

You could also build the whole thing first and then do your complete PPL, but that brings up another reason.

(2) make sure you can be a pilot. While unlikely, there are some people that for whatever reason, can't achieve a PPL (medical, mental blocks on certain skills, etc.). If you get your PPL now, you will have cleared that hurdle before you invest a large amount of money in a kit.

 

[TSwezey]

I started building before I even started my PPL training. Start building now! Don't wait! I have only flown in an -8 and a -10. If you can fly a 172 or a Grumman Tiger you can fly a -10 with some training. I would imagine you could easily transition to a -7a or a -9a.

 

[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

Any plane you're not used to is "too much plane." I haven't flown for two years and a couple of weeks ago I went up with a CFI. Let's just say it was embarrassing. What was I flying? A Warrior.

If you respect the vehicle and dedicate yourself to the training required to become proficient AND make sure you stay proficient, there is no reason why an RV should be beyond you.

The trick, also, is to keep training (flying) while you're building. REntal out my way -- Minn. -- right now with a CFI and fuel surcharges and the Metropolitan Airports Commission "fee" (which is a gift to Northwest Airlines) makes the hourly cost about $225. Ouch.

 

[flyingchuck]

Insurance Minimums?

This is more a question than a statement of fact. Is it possible to insure an RV with such low time?

Yesterday I talked with the fine folks at NationAir Insurance. I am in the VERY early process of building an RV10.... but maybe an -8... (that's a different story)... so I was doing some research on costs and minimums for insurance for the two models.

It sounds like a pilot needs at least 250 hours total time to be insured by AIG. For a tail-wheel RV8, you need 25 hours of tail-wheel time as well. For the RV10, they like 50 hours of high performance time along with an IFR rating.

Can anyone shed some light on the insurance side of things?

I say go for the the PPL now for sure and get it done. Not sure about the insurance minimums, but it would be good to be able to fly a little every month or so during the build process to keep current and build hours without having to pay an instructor. I say save the $ and then bang out the PPL 3-4 days a week until finished. I finished my PPL in 3 months at 40.4 hours doing it that way. Way cheaper than stringing it out over many months and lots of instructor hours.

I am having similar pains with the whole "waiting" thing. I want to start building NOW, but life just won't allow that atm. Buying our first house this year and having a decent sized down payment is top priority right now which really limits the $$$. So, I have to be content with lurking the boards, flying enough to keep the rust off (about an hour a month), researching all aspects of the build process, deciding on tools, planning my panel, getting my name on the hideously long hanger waiting list, learning about web design and HTML, etc.

You will make it!

 

[orchidman]

I'm currently taking flight training at Guthrie-Edmond Regional Airport; I'd also like to build an airplane. So two questions I propose to you.
-Chase

You are in a prefect location. Right on the field Gale Braden is building an RV-9A and he is the EAA Chapter 24 Tech Councilor. He should be an excellent source for answers about building a 7 or a 9 and you could take a look at a 9 in progress.

Go for it, but put the flying and getting/keeping the flying proficiency should be at a higher priority for the $$$ then the plane. You will never build until you start and Gale should be able to assist you in your homework as to which model will be best for your experience and what you intend on using it for.

 

[Harvey L. Sorensen]

Get your PPL first. Many students when starting to learn to fly are all excited of course. Before they get their PPL they quit because ( insert reason here ). Once you get your PPL you will know if you want to keep flying. Then buy your kit, start poundings rivets and rent a 150 to knock around the sky with, or even buy one as most likely it won't cost you much if anything to own when you sell it if you keep it in good condition. It don't have to be prety or even low time just airworthy and safe. You won't put many hours on it and it will be easy to sell if it is cheep. It is easer to find someone with $20,000 to spend on a starter plane than someone with $35-$40,000. Just something to keep curent and have fun. And just think what a blast you will have when you get out of your 150 and into your brand new RV-?

Good luck and keep your air speed up

 

[OKAV8r]

It is well documented, and I can attest from 30 years recommending applicants for their PPL, flying 2-3 times per week is optimal for most people. Study hard, fly often, and get the check ride out of the way. Then get a demo flight in an RV. Then build. When the time comes, get back in the air in whatever make/model you trained in to get back up to speed, THEN move up to the RV...

 

[etekberg]

An RV-7A is extremely easy to fly, IMO.

I bought a flying RV-7A before getting my PPL. Learned on a school's cherokee and the 7A at the same time. The cherokee is easier to do maneuvers in as a twitch of your hand does not result in a +/- 200 foot change in altitude. The 7A is easier to land properly as you can hold the nose off seemingly for ever.

I wouldn't be scared of transitioning to the 7A. Should be a piece of cake. If you are sure you want to build, I would start as soon as you can afford to.

 

[Rabidsnipe]

This is more a question than a statement of fact. Is it possible to insure an RV with such low time?

Yesterday I talked with the fine folks at NationAir Insurance. I am in the VERY early process of building an RV10.... but maybe an -8... (that's a different story)... so I was doing some research on costs and minimums for insurance for the two models.

It sounds like a pilot needs at least 250 hours total time to be insured by AIG. For a tail-wheel RV8, you need 25 hours of tail-wheel time as well. For the RV10, they like 50 hours of high performance time along with an IFR rating.

Can anyone shed some light on the insurance side of things?

I say go for the the PPL now for sure and get it done. Not sure about the insurance minimums, but it would be good to be able to fly a little every month or so during the build process to keep current and build hours without having to pay an instructor. I say save the $ and then bang out the PPL 3-4 days a week until finished. I finished my PPL in 3 months at 40.4 hours doing it that way. Way cheaper than stringing it out over many months and lots of instructor hours.

I am having similar pains with the whole "waiting" thing. I want to start building NOW, but life just won't allow that atm. Buying our first house this year and having a decent sized down payment is top priority right now which really limits the $$$. So, I have to be content with lurking the boards, flying enough to keep the rust off (about an hour a month), researching all aspects of the build process, deciding on tools, planning my panel, getting my name on the hideously long hanger waiting list, learning about web design and HTML, etc.

You will make it!

Thanks for the input guys.

Some of the might have already known this, but I thought I'd post it anyways. I just spoke with Avemco about insurance on the RV-7A and their requirements. Basically to offer flight insurance they require:
minimum 10 hour in make/model
Minimum PPL/ no student pilots
No minimum total time requirements

 

[Sam Buchanan]

Thanks for the input guys.

Some of the might have already known this, but I thought I'd post it anyways. I just spoke with Avemco about insurance on the RV-7A and their requirements. Basically to offer flight insurance they require:
minimum 10 hour in make/model
Minimum PPL/ no student pilots
No minimum total time requirements

But.........compare Avemco's rates with AIG and other carriers that customarily insure RV's.

 

[Rabidsnipe]

But.........compare Avemco's rates with AIG and other carriers that customarily insure RV's.

And by that you mean?

 

[the_other_dougreeves]

I found the -9A easy (and fun!) to fly coming from a background with 150 total hours, all in light-sport aircraft.

If you have time, energy and money, build.

TODR

 

[RV7Factory]

#1 As I'm sure all of you can understand, I'm of course chomping at the bit to get started with building. I don't want to waste any precious time waiting around to start building. Further, I can't fly all the time. There are huge chunks of my time that are spent wasted, not flying but not building. But I'm torn as to whether I should complete my PPL before I start building. The building funds will probably come from the same bucket as the flying funds so doing them at the same time will probably just draw both of them out. Should I finish my PPL training before I start building? Or should I just lay that first $1200 down and start building and continue to take lessons, building while I'm not flying?

I'm another one in the get your PPL first camp.

Make no mistake about it, building is a HUGE commitment of time, money and energy. Much the same could be said about getting your PPL.

I realize you are anxious to get started, but shouldn't you first be anxious to finish your PPL?

Let's say you get started on the RV right now, and let's also say you keep up your training and eventually get your PPL. Are you going to be able to keep flying while you finish the RV? How fresh will your flying skills be? Will you be a safe pilot having only just gotten your PPL and then flying only very limited amounts while you build? Your PPL is a license to learn, and you will find that you learn a lot more in the first 100 hrs after you get your PPL than you did during your training .

I certainly don't want to come across as negative, but I think there is a lot to be learned about flying, your capabilities, and your likes and dislikes (with regards to flying) in the short time after you get your PPL. Just my $.02.

OK, now that I have said all that, if it is truly your dream to build an RV, then do it!

Whatever you choose to do, best of luck!

 

[rfinch]

"Build it, dam it!"

That's a quote from advocates of a local dam project (Auburn Dam), now defunct. But I think it works in your case.

I didn't get enough info from your initial post to be confident in this, but you seem like a high-energy person who can learn to fly and build at the same time. I do question the $1200 you stated to start building. You already have all the tools you need? What about the rest of the plane? I would advise having $15-20K available now for flight lessons + building, with the remaining cost available in 2 or 3 years.

You didn't mention a job either, so I assume you simply have the time and finances to do both. If so, do it. Since you have little flying experience in anything, do get a ride in the different models to make sure you'll like the one you pick. As for trike vs. tailwheel, it only makes a real difference in landing and looks.

 

[John Clark]

Two things...

This whole discussion comes down to two things, time and money. As anyone that has been in aviation for a while will tell you, the one thing that makes an airplane fly is money. With your two goals in mind, learning to fly and building an airplane, I suggest the following. Gather up enough cash to power through your PPL in the least amount of time. Spreading the training out will cost you a lot more time and money. I proved this to myself forty-something years ago by getting my Private, start to finish, in a month. At two lessons a day, it is hard to forget too much!

Spreading out the construction will not cause the same increase in cost (unless, I suppose, you are renting a building for the project!)

John Clark ATP, CFI
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[Sam Buchanan]

Thanks for the input guys.

Some of the might have already known this, but I thought I'd post it anyways. I just spoke with Avemco about insurance on the RV-7A and their requirements. Basically to offer flight insurance they require:
minimum 10 hour in make/model
Minimum PPL/ no student pilots
No minimum total time requirements

But.........compare Avemco's rates with AIG and other carriers that customarily insure RV's.

And by that you mean?

Chase, by that I meant you may be able to get coverage with Avemco, but if their rate structure is the same as it has been for the past several years (a request for a quote might clear this up) their premiums are going to be very high. Avemco was so adverse to experimental aviation they refused to write our planes for several years. They have just recently gotten back into the experimental market.

When you request a quote from Avemco, be sure you include a hull value of at least $75,000. While you may be able to get them to carry you with the experience you referenced, I suspect the premium will be breathtaking.

Quotes from AIG will be lower, but they will require more experience and time in type along with transition training to the RV.

For whatever it is worth, I suggest you finish your PPL before beginning a project. At this point in time you don't have a very clear notion of the mission profile of your ideal plane. After flying for awhile, you may decide you like low-n-slow better than IFR operations or long cross-country trips. These preferences can only be formed after spending some time blending aviation into your lifestyle, budget, and family needs. The mission profile will dictate whether or not an RV is best for you, which model best fits your profile, and how it should be equipped (which also has a huge impact on $$$$$$$'s!).

Best of luck to you, enjoy your training, continue to kick tires, and hopefully we will see your project take shape some day.

 

[Rabidsnipe]

Thanks for all the great responses guys. I know that I'm still brand new at this whole flying thing. I guess it brings up a comment that I've seen a lot of places, "There are builders, and there are flyers." Considering that I'm learning to fly so I can build, maybe I'm just a builder.

Anyways, I've been trying to take about 3 lessons a week but weather recently has really gotten in my way. I'm pretty sure that I'll get my PPL before I drop the cash to start a kit; but I appreciate everyone giving their two cents worth.

BTW, when I mentioned $1200 to start building what I meant was $1600 for the cost of the tail. I know there are tools, workshop, etc. but I've been slowly working on those for some time now. Sometimes I feel like I'm just so ready to build I know exactly what I want. I might find out, however, that is not entirely true.

I thought I'd add that one of the reasons that I'm so anxious to build is the fact that I have a lot of free time right now. My wife is an accountant (audit) and it's busy season for her right now. So she's basically gone during the week (out of town) and here on the weekends. I have huge blocks of time in the evenings that could be used pounding rivets.

Thanks again. It really is nice to know that there is a place like this with so many people willing to lend a hand and advice.


-Chase

 

[Phil]

Hey Chase,

I logged in specifically for this post because the idea just hit me. And I'm saying this based on your thread about getting your wife's support for building.

Get your PPL first.

The reason I suggest the PPL so you can quickly expose your wife to the possibilities of aviation. If I went to my wife asking her to let me buy/build an airplane without even having a pilots license she'd tell me to quit dreaming, shut up, and take out the trash.

If you get your PPL, it puts much more wood behind your arrow and gives your request much more credibility.

In addition, and this is the most important part, it will give her a chance to take some weekend trips with you. You can go for weekends to the Ozarks, weekends to the Gulf of Mexico, or weekends to see her family. You get the idea. What it does is capture her imagination of what an airplane can do for family.

Once you've captured her imagination, you've got a green light to buy the first parts of an RV. Notice I didn't say, buy the parts for a $80,000 RV. If you talk about $80K, you'll be asked to take the trash out again. But if you position it as, "We can buy pieces as they're required. That's it. A we'll do it as we have the money available" you'll do just fine.

Women usually make emotional decisions and men usually don't. So you need to leverage her emotions and capture her imagination first. Then she'll be supportive of your "family's" desire to fly, build, and take trips together.

My wife was a little hesitiant at first. But after a few weekend trips and trips to her family, she actually talked me out of building a RV-7 for an RV-10! Imagine that, she was making me build a bigger and more expensive RV?

Take care,
Phil

 

[N131RV]

Insurance

I insure through Nationair, which is a broker. Both of my planes ended up with Global Aerospace as the underwriter.

After getting gouged by Avemco for 6 years I saved over 60% by switching to Global for my existing policy.


Hull insurance on my 7A was also _very_ reasonable (with 0 deductible).

While I was not a "low time" pilot, the folks at Nationair worked hard to get me good rates.

Insurance training requirements for the 7A were quite reasonable as well.

All in all, a very pleasant experience, dealing with Nationair.

 

[DaX]

As a data point, I have started building with no license to fly. I plan to get my PPL after starting the fuselage and before taking the dive on buying the engine and avionics. I do get a little bit of time in the air with friends who are flying. Sometimes I get to fly in RV's, but it's mostly been in a J3. Any stick time is good stick time for me at this point.

 

[Rabidsnipe]

Phil,
Your post is spot on. I've talked with my wife about this quite a bit recently and I think you've really hit the nail on the head as far as how I will accomplish this.

Thus far the conversation had been to the tune of:

Me: "Can I build an RV?"
Her: "Well, how much does it cost?"
Me: "It depends, somewhere between $55k and $100k"
Her: "Uhhhh, NO!"

But recently I've changed the approach and it seems to be getting better results:

Me: "Can we budget $xxx per month to build a plane?"
Her: "Hmmmm. Perhaps."

 

[xmxpert]

get the PPL

I would get the PPL first, it looks like you are in about the same spot as me i have 60 loged hours and am about to take my check ride and want to build more but i am going to finish the PPL before doing anything else on my 7.
if yoy have any other hobies that are expensive u might want to try and stop them now and get the ticket. the wife part is trickey. I own a small biz and get cash deals sometimes that the wife dose not know about that is the only way i can build or fly sometimes.

 

[alpinelakespilot2000]

Since dollar signs seem to be what makes sense to your wife, and since you cannot justify the cost of RV building and ownership through economics, you might approach it from a different economic angle: what financial sacrifice will you make to demonstrate to her that the economics can work out for you as a family?

For example, how old is the car you are driving? I drive a 22 year old Honda Accord for precisely this purpose. Would I much rather have a 2007 Toyota Tundra? Of course. But, I'd rather have a 22 year old car and a new airplane rather than a new truck and no airplane!. By not having purchased a new vehicle 10 years ago, when the Honda was 12 years old, I probably saved myself at least 15K in purchase price alone (after the sale of my old vehicle), not to mention the much greater interest and insurance costs. Invest the $15,000 you saved for another 10 years at 10% interest (which she'll recognize as the average return for stocks), and you get $38,906. That's 2/3 or more of a basic RV right there.

If you're not already driving an older car, are you willing to make that sacrifice? (It doesn't have to be a car. It could be anything that you otherwise would have purchased had it not been for your RV-addiction.)

One final recommendation: don't recommend that SHE drive a 22 year old car! I don't think that will get you very far.

Good luck.

Phil,
Your post is spot on. I've talked with my wife about this quite a bit recently and I think you've really hit the nail on the head as far as how I will accomplish this.

Thus far the conversation had been to the tune of:

Me: "Can I build an RV?"
Her: "Well, how much does it cost?"
Me: "It depends, somewhere between $55k and $100k"
Her: "Uhhhh, NO!"

But recently I've changed the approach and it seems to be getting better results:

Me: "Can we budget $xxx per month to build a plane?"
Her: "Hmmmm. Perhaps."

 

[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

Phil,
Me: "Can we budget $xxx per month to build a plane?"
Her: "Hmmmm. Perhaps."

This is one of the reasons I like Quicken. You can create reports out of categories. For example, I have one beer a night; that's it. My wife has an occasional cocktail. One year I decided to see how much we spent on "liquor" over a full year, just at that level. It was pretty.... high.

It also is a great way to figure out what you can do without if you really want to build an RV.

BTW, "beer" was not what I learned to do without.

 

[Phil]

BTW, "beer" was not what I learned to do without.

We've heard of people who have a wine taste but a beer budget.

I'm not sure I've ever heard of anyone building an RV out of beer money!!!

Makes me wish I drank more!!!!

 

[the_other_dougreeves]

I must relate a conversation with my former college roommate and former RV-4 owner:

"Hey, Dale, it's Doug. I'm working in SoCal this week and staying over through Saturday. Why don't we meet up Saturday morning? I can drive out to Redlands" (it's about a 90 minute drive)

"Well, you're staying by John Wayne [SNA], right? Why don't we fly over and pick you up?"

"Aw, Dale, you don't have to. That'd be a lot of gas, and you'd have to bring me back too"

"Doug, we don't always do things the cheap way; sometimes we do things the fun way."

[pause]

"Ok, SNA at 7am Saturday!"

TODR

 

[Neal@F14]

Insurance: Avemco vs others

And by that you mean?

When I was a freshly-minted PP-ASEL and bought my first airplane (a Cherokee 140) in 2001, Avemco was the only one who'd even insure me until after I had at least 100 hours under my belt and 25 in make/model. It was $1100/yr. I put about 150 hours on it the first year, and after that once I had over 200 hours logged, the other insurers were glad to have my business at ~$700/yr.

Just a few months ago, I went insurance shopping again. I now have over 600 hours Cherokee time and Avemco still wanted $1100/yr. Travers Insurance got my business at $595/yr. I've been told that insurance for me on a hypothetical average RV-7 would probably run about $1600/year.

BTW, a Cherokee 140 is cheap to buy, and cheap to fly for building hours and getting flying experience while you build. You can pick up good used ones for less than $30K because right now the used spamcan market is down the toilet.

The flying qualities of a Cherokee vs an RV are a daylight & dark difference. The Cherokee is a wallowing pig. Roll rate of 30 deg/sec. Nothing happens fast in one. It is a very docile plane that will keep you safe and alive thru lots of the learn-by-doing, experience-building flying that everyone does after they pass their PP checkride... unless you try to do something really stupid in one.

The RV is a whole 'nuther animal. The phrase "responsive controls" is an understatement. You fly it with two fingers on the stick. It'll roll effortlessly. Fast, powerful climb rate, the works. I've flown in -4's, -6's, one -8, and a -7A. I fell in love with the -7 before I even climbed into the left seat. I'm hopelessly hooked now.

 

[ao.frog]

Do both

Hi.

I'd go for both at the same time.

The reason is that building is a great hobby and it's nice to have a hobby while you're not flying. (on those bad weather days for example)

Then you could build the tailfeathers while doing your PPL.

Building takes alot of time, and the learning curve is steep in the beginning so it's nice to get an early start.

The cost for the tail and basic tool is ofcourse a good chunk og money, but not that much compared to the whole plane.
Maybe you can get hold of some used tools or borrow the more exepensive ones?
You can even sometimes find a untouched set of tailfeathers and tools for sale.
(if you go for that option, bring an experienced RV-builder along to check out the stuff)

Maybe you can get your wife to help you? Then you both will start the journey of building together.

Also I highly recommend to start with Vans practice kit and toolbox. And get one for your wife too!
Maybe you could buy those, borrow tools for a while and build those? Then you could see for yourself what building is all about wihout the big spendings.

I echo what is said earlier here; I really regret that I didn't start this project 10, 20 or 30 years ago! I'm 52 now and every day is one day closer to the day I'll loose my medical....

If you've RV's nearby, go see the planes and talk to people. RV-people is very nice people and you'll make new friends!
And the very best advice: have someone give you a ride in a RV! That'll make you a builder on the spot!

Best of luck with your PLL and your aviation journey. And your building too ofcourse!

 

[N131RV]

Some thoughts (long)

Thought I'd weigh back in on this one after thinking a bit.

I'm currently taking flight training at Guthrie-Edmond Regional Airport; I'd also like to build an airplane. So two questions I propose to you.

#1 As I'm sure all of you can understand, I'm of course chomping at the bit to get started with building. I don't want to waste any precious time waiting around to start building. Further, I can't fly all the time. There are huge chunks of my time that are spent wasted, not flying but not building. But I'm torn as to whether I should complete my PPL before I start building. The building funds will probably come from the same bucket as the flying funds so doing them at the same time will probably just draw both of them out. Should I finish my PPL training before I start building? Or should I just lay that first $1200 down and start building and continue to take lessons, building while I'm not flying?

You can build without having the PPL, and you can fly without building. But, to fly a plane you built, you need to do both. The question is which comes first? If you are like the "average" builder, you will be building a long time. Even if you are "fast", if you have a job and family, it will take a substantial amount of calendar time to finish a plane.

The crux seems to be the cost, and convincing the spouse to go along.
Can't help with the spouse, but you can get the cost _way_ down, which then might help with the spouse.

For example, I trained at the highest costing facility I could find (quite by accident) and paid about $155/hour for my flight training (in a Cherokee 160). On the same field was a flying club. The cost to join was $1000. They had three planes, the most expensive of which was $34/hour (wet). They had at least half a dozen instructors at around $25/hour. For around half the cost, I could have done my flight training. If I could have fit in a 172, it would have been even less. I joined the club as a way to "always have an airplane" even if mine was down. After about two years, I sold my membership for $1500!

So, see if there is any way you can get your training cost down. Just a thought.

On to building. There is no law that says you _ever_ have to buy a single part from Vans at new prices. Kits come up for sale _all the time_, some at a substantial discount. There are some really excellent deals on engines here from time to time as well. Same for props, or you can scrounge for that as well. Simple VFR instruments and panel will keep your cost down.
You can spend $80k (or more) building your plane, or you could spend as little as $35 to $40k for a very nice ride. You can ALWAYS UPGRADE LATER. As a low time pilot, you won't be doing IFR (at least not at first) so you don't need a $30K panel (or even a $10K panel).

Post a WTB ad in the Classified forum. I did, and was rewarded. I got leads on several kits (to repair my 7A) and in a different ad, I got over a dozen leads on inexpensive flying RV's. It doesn't hurt to ask. You would be surprised at the number of flying planes under $40K that I found.

#2 This leads into my next question. I imagine that even if I finish my PPL before I start building that chances are, I'll be a low time pilot by the time I'm done (<100 hours). Can a low time pilot safely transition to an RV-7A or 9A? I imagine the answer is yes with enough transition training, but I wanted to hear it from you guys. Has anyone ever finished their PPL training in a Van's (obviously you'd have to have someone else fly off your 40 hours for you, so maybe that would be dumb)?

Just some questions from someone who is just dying to start building.


-Chase

Unless you are "flight challenged" flying an RV will be pretty easy, especially a 7A or 9A. My 7A flew like it was on rails. I've got time in 6's, 7A and 10. The 6 was most challenging and even it did not take a lot of time to get comfortable in.

Last word, do you really want to "build" or would you be fine with "tinkering" on an already flying airplane? If you love to fly, then the second option might be best (and might even be cheaper).

Just my two cents,

 

[RV10Man]

re:check other post

I still think you guys talk to your wives too much.. My wife & I do talk to each other. I tell her what she needs to know, she tells me what I need to know. We don't ask for permission from each other to do anything. She trusts me & I trust her. If she wants to go scrapbooking one weekend or to War Eagle one weekend, she TELLS me she's going, same thing for me if I'm going somewhere sometime, I tell her i'm going. Then we work out the logistics for looking after the kids.
We've been married 27 years and have NEVER had a "fight", didn't say we haven't disagreed on some things, but neither one has ever slept on the couch because of an argument.
I honestly think more guys have hobbies than do women. That may be the reason my wife & I "get along" with each other as we do, we both understand each others' passions. She sews & scrapbooks, & I fly. We support each other.
If I tell her I'm leaving on the Goldwing, the "fights on", between her & the two daughters over which one is going with me. the best part is, I go anyway, & get to spend time with one of them.
Chase, get your wife by the hand & bring her down to Twin Lakes, we'll go for airplane rides & have a good ole time for a day. BTW, Mitchell had his 9A about 1/2 done before his wife even knew he'd bought it.
Give us a call, my # (405) 672-1644 (shop), 799-6049 (h), 417-6077 (c).
Mitchell's # 364-7207.

Marshall Alexander
RV10 fuse/cabin top
N781DM

 

[RV10Man]

re: 7A in NC

Chase, there's a -7A kit in NC in the classifieds for sale. Good price. We could go get it, & tell your wife about it when we get home.

Marshall Alexander
RV10 fuse/cabin top
N781DM

 

[GAHco]

Me, I don't know for you?

I tell people, whatever I do I do well.

But be advised. It is one thing at a time.

Although many people do many things that appear to be simultaneous, they actually just shift gears quickly, and then back.

Make a decision and then focus on fulfilling that decision.

Less distractions.

Less Confusion.

Less chances of letting one activity be an excuse for not doing the other, or doing it well.

Choose, and go for it, that way when you come to each one you will be able to do your best at each one.

Best wishes.

 

[skyfrog]

Lots of good advice

Chase, there's a -7A kit in NC in the classifieds for sale. Good price. We could go get it, & tell your wife about it when we get home.
Marshall Alexander
RV10 fuse/cabin top
N781DM

There's lots of good advice in the thread, including the one above , I like the way you think Marshall.

Here's another data point. I spent about a year gathering tools before I sent for the empennage. Primarily because I was having trouble deciding which aircraft to build. Originally I was set on a 4-seat Velocity, then I became convinced metal was the way to go. That's when I started buying tools. My mission also changed at this point, my wife doesn't seem to like flying, probably because I won't let her wear the parachute . So I went from a 4-seat kit (RV-10 or CH-640) to a 2-seat (601 or RV7/9). I was still undecided between a Zenith and an RV until Sun-N-Fun. After sitting in the RV, I was almost ready to order, but it still took me a couple of months to decide between a RV-7A and a RV-9A.

Then I attended the EAA Workshop and did a practice kit. All that time, I had acquired a shop full of tools, many at 50% off. My sources were the classifieds, Ebay, yard sales, and display units at the aviation departments of Home Depot and Lowes, etc. I believe the only tool I paid full price for was the air compressor. You see, I needed a compressor to work on the house one day (at least that what I told the wife ).

So, get you PPL while you are tool gathering. Your choice of kit (and mission) may change after a hundred hours of flight time. Mine did...

 

[Rabidsnipe]

Chase, there's a -7A kit in NC in the classifieds for sale. Good price. We could go get it, & tell your wife about it when we get home.

Marshall Alexander
RV10 fuse/cabin top
N781DM

Yeah I saw that. It would be pretty sweet. However, after some discussion it's pretty much been stipulated to get my PPL before construction starts. I think I'll have to take you up on the offer to fly though. I'll get in touch.


-CHase

 

[mdredmond]

I made the mistake of spreading out my primary training over a number of years (was in college & broke) and never finished.

Now I'm building the -9 and I'm waiting until it's done to finish my training. I'll be able to train in my own plane for less money than renting and I'll (hopefully) always have an airplane available (whose maintenance history I know!).

 

[the_other_dougreeves]

I'd go for both at the same time.

The reason is that building is a great hobby and it's nice to have a hobby while you're not flying. (on those bad weather days for example)

Then you could build the tailfeathers while doing your PPL.

Yep. Building will help keep your motivation up as well - your building and student projects will feed off each other.

Just my $0.02, YMMV, etc.

TODR

 

[flytoboat]

primary training

I made the mistake of spreading out my primary training over a number of years (was in college & broke) and never finished.

Now I'm building the -9 and I'm waiting until it's done to finish my training. I'll be able to train in my own plane for less money than renting and I'll (hopefully) always have an airplane available (whose maintenance history I know!).

Does that mean you will have to get someone else to fly off the 25/40 hour test period?

 

[Rabidsnipe]

Well I got the go ahead for one of the practice projects. That's good enough for now to keep me busy with something airplane related. Now I just got to get me some tools (the ones I don't already have). Anyone selling a rivet gun?

 

[nucleus]

I still think you guys talk to your wives too much.. My wife & I do talk to each other. I tell her what she needs to know, she tells me what I need to know. We don't ask for permission from each other to do anything. She trusts me & I trust her. If she wants to go scrapbooking one weekend or to War Eagle one weekend, she TELLS me she's going, same thing for me if I'm going somewhere sometime, I tell her i'm going. Then we work out the logistics for looking after the kids.
We've been married 27 years and have NEVER had a "fight", didn't say we haven't disagreed on some things, but neither one has ever slept on the couch because of an argument.
I honestly think more guys have hobbies than do women. That may be the reason my wife & I "get along" with each other as we do, we both understand each others' passions. She sews & scrapbooks, & I fly. We support each other.
If I tell her I'm leaving on the Goldwing, the "fights on", between her & the two daughters over which one is going with me. the best part is, I go anyway, & get to spend time with one of them.
Chase, get your wife by the hand & bring her down to Twin Lakes, we'll go for airplane rides & have a good ole time for a day. BTW, Mitchell had his 9A about 1/2 done before his wife even knew he'd bought it.
Give us a call, my # (405) 672-1644 (shop), 799-6049 (h), 417-6077 (c).
Mitchell's # 364-7207.

Marshall Alexander
RV10 fuse/cabin top
N781DM

You guys should listen to Marshall here, you start asking for permission for stuff and you get an unhappy husband and wife both...

Hans

 

[alpinelakespilot2000]

You guys should listen to Marshall here, you start asking for permission for stuff and you get an unhappy husband and wife both...
Hans

I'm no marriage counselor, but for those who come to Vansaircraft.com for marriage advice, I hardly think embarking on a project like this, especially one that's going to cost $60K, without the support of your spouse can ever be a good thing. Unless, of course, $60K is not a sigifnicant amount of money to you or her.

 

[hughfi]

PPL first.

On the PPL.

Get the written out of the way asap. This gives you the information you need to get the most from your instructor and instruction and get to the checkride more quickly and with less expense. Use the www.gleim.com PPL written software. Every newbie pilot wants to get behind the controls asap, but it costs you money you could be putting towards your aircraft.

In my experience, doing the written as early as possible saves you thousands.

As for building an RV. It depends on the plane you want and what you want to do with it. In my view an RV9a is the easiest transition with a larger wing, more stability etc., but you give up aerobatics etc. Thats your decision.

H.

 

[RV10Man]

I'm no marriage counselor, but for those who come to Vansaircraft.com for marriage advice, I hardly think embarking on a project like this, especially one that's going to cost $60K, without the support of your spouse can ever be a good thing. Unless, of course, $60K is not a sigifnicant amount of money to you or her.

Add up all the money you (maybe not you) but most folks in general, spend at ballgames, concerts, snacks in the middle of the afternoon & evening, and just all the little "junk buys" you really don't need or aren't good for you. You might be surprised how much this comes out to in say......5 yrs.
The guy that works for me spends about $7 a day in junk food & snuff.

Marshall

 

[Rabidsnipe]

Add up all the money you (maybe not you) but most folks in general, spend at ballgames, concerts, snacks in the middle of the afternoon & evening, and just all the little "junk buys" you really don't need or aren't good for you. You might be surprised how much this comes out to in say......5 yrs.
The guy that works for me spends about $7 a day in junk food & snuff.

Marshall

And that's an empennage and tool kit in one year!!!!

 

[RV10Man]

And that's an empennage and tool kit in one year!!!!

RIGHT ON GUY. And that's only him, not his whole family. You'd be surprised what you really can do without.

I really am blessed. With two daughters & the wife, I'm out numbered, but, you see, I don't have my jobs around the house & them theirs. We have our jobs.........I see something that needs to be done, ie laundry, dishes, etc, I do it. By the same token, if they get home & think the yard needs mowed they mow it. We take care of us & each other. Marriage is not 50/50, it's 100/100.
Granted, I am the bread winner. I've NEVER used this for leverage to "get what I want", nor would I. I don't have to & I never would. But they get pretty much what they want/need also. That goes back to the trust thing. We know what we can & can't afford. We don't play the game of, you got that so I'm getting this. We both know how expensive that could get.
My wife teaches in a private Christian school because she wants to, not because she has to.
Proud? You bet! This type of..... arrangement, if you will, workd very well for us.

Marshall

 

[Jaypratt]

PPL Build or FLY?

Chace,

You need to answer your own queston. Do you want to build, or fly?
Can you afford to build and fly? If so do it! Bulding is another hobby, building to FLY is not a very expedient way to get an airplane. They can be had for lots less than the cost to build a RV4,6,7,8,9, 10.
Me, I bought a Cessna 172 for my PPL. Good experience I think.
I owned a Cheorkee SIX while building my first RV6. I did not use it much as I was more interested in building, but, It was there when a good fly out was happening. All flying experience is good. Get as much as you can. If you can buy a C 140 or C150 and build, do it. If not?,,, get your PPL first, and rent when you can,,, while building.
My $02,,,, and worth what you paid for it.

 

[axlr8r]

Training issues ?

I made the mistake of spreading out my primary training over a number of years (was in college & broke) and never finished.

Now I'm building the -9 and I'm waiting until it's done to finish my training. I'll be able to train in my own plane for less money than renting and I'll (hopefully) always have an airplane available (whose maintenance history I know!).

I like the idea of training in my own aircraft. However, are there issues with: 1. finding an instructor qualified to train in your Rv, 2. can a CFI fly for hire in an experimental aircraft, 3. can you get insurance to fly solo in your own experimental aircraft without a PPL, 4. can a designated examiner give you a check-ride in an experimental aircraft?
Just wondering here because I'd like to have my granddaughter learn in an RV. Hope this is not too far off topic.

 

[nucleus]

Buy a flying RV

Buy a flying one, save time and money, then if you want to build you can take your time with it...

Hans