J

Jack Tyler

Well Known Member
I'm still at the front end of the learning curve and I'm sure this Q has been batted around before. But perhaps it's worth revisiting now that there are some new(ish) Vans models being built. So please bear with me on this...

If I'm going to build a plane, it's likely to be a metal low-wing, it's likely to come from one of the reputable USA kit builders, to future-proof the purchase it's likely to be an LSA, and so it's likely to be an S-19 or an RV-12. This Q relates to the RV-12, altho' probably everyone here who's built a Vans RV during the last number of years has an opinion that's worth me hearing.

Vans estimate on the RV-12 build time is 700-900 hrs. Perhaps that's quite accurate for some builders - those with relevant professional skill sets or repeat builders. But I've made it to a fair number of y'alls build blogs/websites/logs and, so far, I haven't come across a single project that was being completed in the estimated build time. Not by a long shot. And in some cases, these folks have done all the pre-work one could expect - reviewed the plans, been to see other projects, cleaned up/insulated/otherwise prepared their garages for the project, all before the Big Day arrived and the crate was opened. And yet the project takes multiple years. Sometimes lots of them.

So how about it? For a guy who's kept a sailboat's systems working for lots of years without outside help (so I'm not a total klutz), who doesn't have a 'real job', and who's never tackled something like this before (when every single step will be, initially, a learning curve), what kind of Reality Factor should I be applying to that 700-900 hr build estimate that Van's promises?

Editorial comments welcomed, not just some numbers. And thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Jack
 
Hi Jack. This thread will give you a good start. For a guy who's kept a sailboat's systems working for lots of years without outside help it's a piece of cake. ;) Really. Welcome!
 
Van Believes His Estimates

If this is a problem you probably should not start on the kit. I built an RV-6A quick build kit. I don't know why I asked but retirement could have come as early as 5 years later perhaps that was it. Without knowing what individual things I would incorporate into the airplane Richard VanGrunsven answered me face-to-face in North Plains, Oregon in October 1996, that it should take around 1,300 hours. On March 21, 2004 I made the first flight after 3,877.8 hours of build time - almost three times the estimate. You can't modify an RV-12 like that so your actual time should be much closer to Van's estimate.

Bob Axsom
 
Jack,

I think I've posted this number before, but I have about 1300 hours in my 9A QB (using the SWAG method of counting). That includes several non-plans modifications (none of which took a whole lot of time). I contracted out the painting after flying for a year, so that's not counted in my 1300. My thought is that if you are not trying to build a show plane or make a lot of modifications, then Van's number is not unreasonable. Build time will reflect your personality and how much time you spend thinking/planning vs. building (and whether you count the thinking/planning as hours). It also will reflect your continuing building - if you stop and start, it may take longer overall as you will have to get your head back in the game each time you have stopped for more than a few days/weeks.

My two cents.

greg
 
Very useful info, so far...

...and Vlad, thank you for the other thread.

Perhaps I would be surprised (and find the building process to be fun in its own right...) but my expectation is that it will turn out to only be a means to an end (the end being flying, of course). The main messages so far (drawing from both threads) seem to be:
-- an E-LSA forces one by definition away from 'customizing' and so the added time costs of doing that. Also, the more mature the kit, the fewer the time-sink 'issues' (like the engine mount bolt problem mentioned in the RV-12 thread)
-- "hours" and "years" are somewhat the same for some folks, but not for most folks. For a 'full-time' builder like I would be, it will be finding the balance between the desire for progress without letting it squash the needed patience
-- there are built-in lags that some folks don't count (in their 'hours') but that take time for most everyone: order fulfillment time, skill-building/EAA type workshop time, getting the shop ready and tools in hand time, initial plans study before daring to 'do' anything time all come to mind. Perhaps some of those can be concurrent

More comments welcome, to be sure...

Jack
 
Jack,

I started out on my project with the same question. In my mind, building an RV was only a means to an end. I wanted an airplane and this seemed like the most practical way to have the airplane that I wanted at a price that I could afford. If money was no object, I would have just bought one. I knew this would be no small undertaking and take many months or even years to complete. I wasn't looking forward to all the time and effort involved, but I'm such a practical person and it just made so much sense. But now that I'm roughly halfway into it, I've learned some amazing things that I would have never anticipated learning. Things about myself.

I've learned that as nice as it will be to have an airplane, this is much more than a means to an end. It's more rewarding along the way than I would have ever guessed. It's really all about the journey. Now if you're rolling your eyes at a statement like that, I once did, too. But seriously, I'm enjoying this journey. This project. I'm enjoying all the little milestones along the way. I'm enjoying all the accomplishments and the gratification one gets from a task or a job well done. I can't tell you how good it felt to set that first rivet. To get my rudder finished. To finish the fuel tanks and have them test leak free. To rivet the bottom skins on the wings and call them finished. I could go on and on. Yes, there are days when you're frustrated, not motivated, or discouraged. Something goes wrong. You put a smilie dent in something or ruin a part. You want to just throw in the towel and walk away. But when you work your way through those times and come out with a finished whatever-it-is, it's SO worth it! Everyone who has a flying RV says "keep pounding those rivets... it's worth it". You'll have the famous "RV grin" when it's all done. Well, I'm here to tell you that the RV grin begins long before your first flight. I'm having them all the time these days. That's the serendipity. I really believe now that every person should be involved with a big project of some kind during their life. Something BIG. Something so big that it takes years to finish.

At first, I thought "oh my god... I don't know if I have what it takes to spend years doing a huge project like building an airplane." But you learn things about patience. Perserverence. Following through. Committment. Who would argue that these are good values to cultivate? We live in a culture that's so oriented to having everything you want right now. Instant gratification. This project has really brought me down to earth and grounded me in values I believe in. There's the serendipity. Again. Do you know the average American watches 3 to 4 hours of TV every day? What does that do for you? What will you have to show for it, 3 or 4 years from now? The way I see it, I'm investing TV time into this project. I realized I couldn't remember the shows I saw last week, let alone last month or last year. Why not turn those hours into something valuable and rewarding? So I decided to put down the remote, lose the easy chair, pick up some tools and charts, manuals, and books, and start pounding some rivets!

Somewhere along the way, as I began to realize all these things, my whole way of looking at this changed. It's no longer a means-to-an-end. The hours don't really matter. What matters is what's happening out in my shop TODAY, and how much enjoyment I'm going to get out of it. I'll have a flying airplane soon enough. It happens when it happens. Meanwhile, I'm having the time of my life.

Here's to you... Just jump in and get started!
 
Build Time

Jack, I believe Vans is sincere when they post estimated build times. There are two caveats, however: experienced builder and hours include only hands-on-tools time.

IMHO *no one* is going to finish a kit in the estimated build time as a first-time builder and count the time spent reading the plans, scratching his head and sweeping the shop floor.

That said, the build time estimates are accurate. I work slowly and my slow-build RV6A took 2,600 hours and I wasn't counting head-scratchin' time. My RV12 took 1,100 (in 13 months) and that included painting it myself and all pre-first-flight prep. The RV12 plans are simplified, with instructions right next to the illustrations (no engineering drawings). The kit components are cleverly packaged and the fit is so accurate as to be downright scary. I *know* I could build another 12 in 800 hours, easy. (unpainted.)

I haven't flown the other aircraft you are considering but I cannot imagine a more enjoyable LSA to fly. The visibility and control response are outstanding.

Jim in Texas
N233TX flying 8 hours
 
I used to say that building an airplane was something you did when you were looking for a way to fill your time, not when you're looking for a way to find the time. With that in mind, I bought an already-flying RV-6 and learned how to fly/maintain it. It has been every bit as rewarding to fly that RV-6 as I had imagined it could be, but I still had the urge to create a plane of my own. Having spent some time studying the plans and directions that came with the RV-6, I knew that a project of that magnitude would not fit my skills or schedule.

After five years flying the RV-6, I started looking at the RV-12. I initially was interested because it appeared to be a more approachable project for a guy that could scrape together 10 hours a week. Using Van's numbers plus a couple of hundred to account for my learning curve, even an average of 10 hours/week would have me done in no more than 100 weeks, or just shy of two years. With the luxury of having a flying airplane to address my flying needs, I would be able to treat the project as purely recreational with no pressure to get it done on any kind of schedule. In other words, I could relax and enjoy the process.

I have the tail and fuselage done, and the wings are about half done. I started working on it in October, 2009. I had an enforced break of about two months as I waited for the fuselage kit, so I've actually been working on it for a year. I figure that I'll be installing the engine and avionics this time next year. I have no idea on total hours, but it has been few enough that I have not had any abjections from the family that I'm spending too much time on it.

I will have to list the RV-6 for sale some time next spring for a couple of reasons (hangar space and funds for the engine). I used to dread that, but I've found over the last six to eight months that I more often choose to build than to fly.

This is just my $.02, but it's a buyer's market (good news for you, bad news foe me) for already-flying RV-6s and RV-4s. You might consider a hybrid approach like I did.

Feel free to take a look at my blog - I've discussed pretty much every difficulty you're likely to encounter with building an RV-12 in great detail.

http://www.schmetterlingaviation.com/
 
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Very well said...

BSwayze said:
Jack,

I started out on my project with the same question. In my mind, building an RV was only a means to an end. I wanted an airplane and this seemed like the most practical way to have the airplane that I wanted at a price that I could afford. If money was no object, I would have just bought one. I knew this would be no small undertaking and take many months or even years to complete. I wasn't looking forward to all the time and effort involved, but I'm such a practical person and it just made so much sense. But now that I'm roughly halfway into it, I've learned some amazing things that I would have never anticipated learning. Things about myself.

I've learned that as nice as it will be to have an airplane, this is much more than a means to an end. It's more rewarding along the way than I would have ever guessed. It's really all about the journey. Now if you're rolling your eyes at a statement like that, I once did, too. But semotivated, or discouraged. Something goes wrong. You put a smilie dent in something or ruin a part. You want to just throw in the towel and walk awayriously, I'm enjoying this journey. This project. I'm enjoying all the little milestones along the way. I'm enjoying all the accomplishments and the gratification one gets from a task or a job well done. I can't tell you how good it felt to set that first rivet. To get my rudder finished. To finish the fuel tanks and have them test leak free. To rivet the bottom skins on the wings and call them finished. I could go on and on. Yes, there are days when you're frustrated, not . But when you work your way through those times and come out with a finished whatever-it-is, it's SO worth it! Everyone who has a flying RV says "keep pounding those rivets... it's worth it". You'll have the famous "RV grin" when it's all done. Well, I'm here to tell you that the RV grin begins long before your first flight. I'm having them all the time these days. That's the serendipity. I really believe now that every person should be involved with a big project of some kind during their life. Something BIG. Something so big that it takes years to finish.

At first, I thought "oh my god... I don't know if I have what it takes to spend years doing a huge project like building an airplane." But you learn things about patience. Perserverence. Following through. Committment. Who would argue that these are good values to cultivate? We live in a culture that's so oriented to having everything you want right now. Instant gratification. This project has really brought me down to earth and grounded me in values I believe in. There's the serendipity. Again. Do you know the average American watches 3 to 4 hours of TV every day? What does that do for you? What will you have to show for it, 3 or 4 years from now? The way I see it, I'm investing TV time into this project. I realized I couldn't remember the shows I saw last week, let alone last month or last year. Why not turn those hours into something valuable and rewarding? So I decided to put down the remote, lose the easy chair, pick up some tools and charts, manuals, and books, and start pounding some rivets!

Somewhere along the way, as I began to realize all these things, my whole way of looking at this changed. It's no longer a means-to-an-end. The hours don't really matter. What matters is what's happening out in my shop TODAY, and how much enjoyment I'm going to get out of it. I'll have a flying airplane soon enough. It happens when it happens. Meanwhile, I'm having the time of my life.

Here's to you... Just jump in and get started!
Click to expand...

What a wonderful and insightful post, Bruce....thanks much,
 
BSwayze said:
At first, I thought "oh my god... I don't know if I have what it takes to spend years doing a huge project like building an airplane." But you learn things about patience. Perserverence. Following through. Committment. Who would argue that these are good values to cultivate? We live in a culture that's so oriented to having everything you want right now. Instant gratification. This project has really brought me down to earth and grounded me in values I believe in. There's the serendipity. Again. Do you know the average American watches 3 to 4 hours of TV every day? What does that do for you? What will you have to show for it, 3 or 4 years from now? The way I see it, I'm investing TV time into this project. I realized I couldn't remember the shows I saw last week, let alone last month or last year. Why not turn those hours into something valuable and rewarding? So I decided to put down the remote, lose the easy chair, pick up some tools and charts, manuals, and books, and start pounding some rivets!
Click to expand...

Thank you, Bruce... You have no idea how much I needed to read this right now! :eek: (and just in time for New Year's Resolutions.)
 
Just *very* useful comments, so far - very helpful. (And thanks to Dave for his 'invitation'...and I already PM'd Bruce to applaud his 'bigger picture' comments). I also got a PM from one of you pointing out that I'm asking for apples & oranges here when soliciting comments from non-RV-12 builders, since the RV-12 kit is somewhat unique (in a good way) kit when it comes to assembly. Again, an insight I didn't really appreciate, which is why I went over to the RV-12 group and invited them to read and comment in this thread.

But even restricting the comments to RV-12 builders & their projects, it's looking like the Vans build hour estimate, for a guy like me (not a klutz but a first-time builder) isn't going to be on the low side of 1,000 hrs. And that may/may not be OK; that's my puzzle to solve. But I just want to go into this with my eyes open.

Keep 'em coming, folks. Each one has either been informative & helpful, or applauding those which I need to be sure and pay attention to.

Jack
 
Jack Tyler said:
Just *very* useful comments, so far - very helpful. (And thanks to Dave for his 'invitation'...and I already PM'd Bruce to applaud his 'bigger picture' comments). I also got a PM from one of you pointing out that I'm asking for apples & oranges here when soliciting comments from non-RV-12 builders, since the RV-12 kit is somewhat unique (in a good way) kit when it comes to assembly. Again, an insight I didn't really appreciate, which is why I went over to the RV-12 group and invited them to read and comment in this thread.

But even restricting the comments to RV-12 builders & their projects, it's looking like the Vans build hour estimate, for a guy like me (not a klutz but a first-time builder) isn't going to be on the low side of 1,000 hrs. And that may/may not be OK; that's my puzzle to solve. But I just want to go into this with my eyes open.

Keep 'em coming, folks. Each one has either been informative & helpful, or applauding those which I need to be sure and pay attention to.

Jack
Click to expand...

Jack,

I can certainly appreciate your desire to explore as many aspects of a build project as possible. Homework usually pays big dividends.

Having said that.......after building several planes (I'm on my fourth) and being an EAA Tech Counselor for over a decade, I can state that nearly all successful project completions involved a builder that had to build the plane.

By this I mean the builder was compelled to complete the project regardless of time or budget. Building an aircraft was something that resulted from "fire in the belly" of the builder. I have observed that builders who lack this overwhelming desire to build their own aircraft rarely complete the project.

If you are having second thoughts about your ability to find time or desire for completing an RV-12, you may have reason to consider whether or not this endeavor is for you. But if you have decided this is something you must do or else live with a huge hole in your bucket list, then it is time to order the kit. :)

Best wishes regardless of the path you choose. We would love to have you in the ranks of builders but also realize this is a path not suited for everyone.
 
Very nice bruce! I asked myself that very question. What else am I going to do at night, watch TV? The thought of wasting time doing that is not very appealing to me. Life is to short-chase your dreams!
 
The mirror image to the question of available time and motivation is asking yourself if you do not have competing/compelling interests which vie for the available time. I've never met anyone who abandoned a build but I have met some who have dawdled, delayed and restarted multiple times due to everything from race cars and a big ol' boat on the lake to spending time with grandchildren.

If you can block out 4 hours a day, five days a week I expect you will be looking at a completed, unpainted RV12 a year later, assuming no kit delivery delays. And I guarantee that the hours spent away from TV (especially news) will find you a happier person.

Jim
RV12 N233TX flying 9 hours
 
Good Post

One of the best posts I have read Bruce. I built a 9A about 10 years ago. Took about 2 years to build a slow build kit. As Sam said, I had fire in my belly and only wanted to build to get the plane.

Even though I enjoyed flying the plane for 900 hrs, I missed the building. I started a 7A quick build 2 years ago and now have 40 hrs. on it.

I miss building already. If I had the funds, I would always have a project in the shop.

Larry
 
build time

Jack, it should be easy for you to build your plane. IF? you are motivated.
I lived aboard 18 years mostly on other peoples boats. I built my standard RV6 in about 2000 hours back in 1995/6. 18 months. I left boating and the Caribbean and moved to Texas to take care of an ageing parent. I was highly motivated to finish.
The RV12 is a very good kit. Vans makes it seamless with the new plans book. Go for it.
 
Jim, thanks for the 'time calibration' re: the -12. One more useful data point. As for 'competing interests', after full-time cruising (aka: fixing a boat in exotic ports), the issue for us is how to fill the future void rather than winnowing out the few among the many priorities...

...which of course you understand, Jay. Thanks for the nudge from a fellow voyager.

Sam, tenacity has never been one of character flaws (altho' it doesn't always produce the best decisions). Rather than indicating a lack of conviction, homework is what - for me - validates I'm ready for the challenge. But I certainly appreciate the cautionary note.

Jack
 
Depends on How You Define Build Time

I've been building an -8A QB for 6+ years and have logged 2399.0 hours - with a couple hundred more to go before first flight. I define build time as time in the shop - including plans study, research and an amazing amount of "what if?" contemplation.

I also have a real job in aerospace that keeps me on the road a lot - so there are learning curve/restart inefficiencies.

I'll echo several of the previous comments - the journey has become just as important as the dstination. It's been an amazingly satisfying (and character-building frustrating) experience. So much so that when the wife backs of her "No way - you have to spend more time working on the house" stance, I'm going to build another one.
 
Thank you all, for your kind comments. It's great to have a place like this where you can share from the heart with others, that you know will understand and can relate to you. :)
 
Reading bruce's reply has given me pause to consider my own experience, which has been similar. But while thinking about it while ripping out a cappuccino, I realized that for me there has been another significant factor that's worth mentioning - stress and anxiety. Thus could well be a topic for a thread on it's own.

When I started my RV-6a project I was goal driven. My goal was to learn to fly and have a great toy to have fun in. I have ample confidence in my ability to get things done that when I set my mind to them but I was worried about being able to afford the project, the fact that I'd never done anything quite like this before and being able to get it done in a timely manner along with everything else on my busy schedule. In a nutshell my commitment to building an airplane and learning to fly was a source of stress in my life, which was already stressful enough.

As time has passed I've learned a few things along the way and consequently done some reevaluation. It's become apparent that dedicating weekends to building hasn't worked out. Far too often other commitments get in the way. Besides, those long days can be tiring and stressful. I posted about it and someone suggested the five minute rule: every day just try to spend five minutes in the shop.

Learning to fly was also a source of stress. I was goal driven and had limited funds. Once my first chunk of money ran out I had to put my lessons on hold.

In essence both of these processes, which were running in parallel, were causing stress because I was attempting to achieve somewhat difficult tasks with limited time and resources. In both cases I found it necessary to back away from my goal orientation and focus more on the process.

Now that I'm trying to spend some time in the shop every day when possible, I'm finding that my airplane building time is not only less stressful, it's actually a source of relaxation and enjoyment. Because I'm not focusing on getting it done I can focus on what I'm doing, if that makes any sense. Much of the work is not intellectually challenging so I like to play podcasts while I work which keeps me entertained at one level while my hands are working at another. So now I can go into my shop for an hour or so and just relax while I fit some pieces, drill a bunch of holes or whatever.

Because my flying lessons are on hold to some extent the same thing applies. Air time is expensive but spending some free time just reading an instructional book is almost free and it can be enjoyable and interesting. Also, I think that I learn better when I review things over a period of time from more than one source as opposed to trying to push through a book and commit material to memory. I'm hoping that when I get back into the cockpit I'll have a better sense of what's really going on and will be better able to access the big picture rather than focusing on a series of details one after another. We shall see.

Anyhow, that's more or less where I'm at now on all of this. I can see why some people build one airplane after another. As hobbies go, airplane building isn't a bad one.
 
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