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JimWoo50

Well Known Member
I have been hanging around airports for a long time and have never seen one of these either in the air or in a hangar. My late father was building one and ended up donating it to a local school. I wonder if he knew it was a bad design or what? Has anyone ever seen one (beside the jet at OSH) fly?
 
There's 324 BD-5s registered on the FAA website. How many of these are flying is any body's guess. I have seen a few fly. There used to be one or two at Sun-N-Fun every year. I'm still looking for one to build and use as a "wind T" for my airport.
 
No sugar coat, several have died on their first flight

JimWoo50 said:
I have been hanging around airports for a long time and have never seen one of these either in the air or in a hangar. My late father was building one and ended up donating it to a local school. I wonder if he knew it was a bad design or what? Has anyone ever seen one (beside the jet at OSH) fly?
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To be blunt the BD-5's have a very checkered past. First the famous (infamous in some peoples mind) Jim Bede took deposits on future BD-5 planes. He failed and defaulted on those orders. My father had a deposit on one. I was a very small child when this was going on. I have seen one prop guy out of Canada fly into Arlington in the late 80's early 90's.

One reason for the BD-5 failure was Bede had a terrible time finding an engine and drive system that would work. They came up with something but it was too late they ran out of money. Conventional tractor driven planes like a RV (prop in from pulling verses prop in back pushing) have a prop attached to the engine. The BD-5 is a pusher with prop in the rear and the engine is mid-airframe, so a long shaft, bearings and reduction drive is needed to make it work. That complication was the down fall. Many technical aspects have been worked out since and people have made all kinds of custom engines and drives work to one degree or another on their own. Some have not worked and added to the fatality rate.

The last and most difficult to talk about is many Pilots have lost their lives in them. They often crash and die on first flight. For one they are very small and there is not much structure there for crashworthiness to protect you. Second they are a challenge to fly with a side stick with very small control throws and sensitivity. What would happen is pilots who only had Cessna 172 time would stop flying altogether to spent years building their BD-5. Than they finish the plane and strap on an experimental plane that is hotter and more sensitive than anything they had flown before by a factor of 20, with rusty skills. Disaster usually resulted. Also often the brand new never tried custom engine installation performance, like low power issues, added to the equation.

The BD-5J or Jet version gained some fame in one of the James Bond movies and in airshow acts like Coors Light Silver Bullet. Sadly the safety record of the BD-5J is not that great either. Many have crashed and many died. Many are used by pro pilots for airshows and even as targets for radar or military test on contract. One of these owned by a company that was on contract with the military recently crashed in the last year or two on approach in the north east. I don't recall if they know the reason it went down or will find out. The company has another one they still fly.

So the combination of no standard engine and very sensitive controls with no manufacture support has made them somewhat of a black sheep. For those that have successfully built and flown them, great, but so many have died, many on the first flight.

There are so many reasons to recommend the RV over the BD-5. You can get training in RV's before first flight. The control and handling of the RV is supreme, precise and predictable. The design using standard engine and props gives it reliability. The stall speed is down in the low 50 mph range and there is more structure around you. So why would anyone want a BD-5. Well if it lived up to the dream, a little bullet or rocket that could fly 200 mph on 90 hp, was super cool. Of course a RV can fly over 200 mph easily and take off and land on very short strips and grass. RV's do crash and some times on first flight but it is not common.

PS: I was kind of surprised at the accident records. I thought the BD-5's would be worse. Don't get me wrong they are terrible, 15% crashed with raw numbers. A quick NTSB check for BD-5's from 1976 to 2001, shows 48 accidents, 19 fatal. RV's show 112 fatal accident, out of a total 368. I guess there are over 5000 registered RV's. Of course flight hours flown? Who knows but I am sure the hours flown by RV's in infinitely larger than the current fleet of BD-5's. You would have to do a statistical analysis and fill in the data with more than the registered planes and number of accidents, however 112 fatal accidents out of 5000 planes flown A LOT, verses 19 fatal out of a fleet of 324, most likely not flying many hours is telling. The raw percentage per fleet is 2.2% verses 6%. For all accidents its 7.3% and 14.8%. I suspect many BD-5's don't fly very much or at all and the RV's fleet flight hours are huge verses the BD-5's, so the accident rate is very high for the BD-5. To be fair the RV could be better, but than you have to look at why accidents happen or what caused them. I think pilot error figures in many RV accidents. The BD likely has more mechanical failures or contribution to accidents. Bottom line safety can be improved, but as an airframe the RV is very safe, primarily due to the low stall speed and the aluminum structure that bends and deforms, which absorbs energy, unlike composite airframes.
 
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Very Timely

I'm an engineer and here at Bring Your Child to Work Day we had a BD5-J on display out in the courtyard. The guy who owns it is apparently a retired engineer, he let's the kids sit in and explains what all the instruments do while they move the control stick. He said he bought the half completed parts from someone who decided to give up on the kit and used it as a class project. Now he uses it as an educational display to get kids excited in science. He doesn't know if it is flyable (it has the original stubby wings) and he doesn't ever plan on flying it. It doesn't have any electronics or an engine. It is amazing how tiny that plane is, the top of the vertical stab stands at most 5' off the ground. It would be a kick in the pants to fly one, but I'd be afraid. There is no crash protection in that plane, if you nose in the pilot is one of the first things to hit the ground.

I don't know what I was thinking...I should have taken a picture of it. :rolleyes: I've actually seen it here before, if I see it again I'll snap a few pics and post them.

There was article about a BD-5 builder and his father in I think it was last months Sport Aviation. It's a good read, I highly recommend it.
 
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My sister's husband has a complete BD-5 kit still in the crates. His father bought it during the heyday of the design and never did anything with it. I've seen the canopy, but I think it would be really cool to poke around the contents of the crates and see what's what.

Guy
 
How small can you make an airplane and still fly?

One of my neighbors bought a ?flying? BD-5 and spent a year getting it into the air. He replace the snowmobile engine with a rotax of some type. (He sold the plane to buy a boat to make his wife happy, they divorced, and both moved out so this is from memory.)

The airplane is small, VERY small. I remember sitting in it and thinking there was only a thin skin between me and my toes. Also, since the canopy comes so far down there is very little structure to use to gauge your altitude & attitude with when landing. That was my observation anyway.

His plane came with a custom trailer from Bede, specifically designed to hold the fuselage and removable wings.

The guy who owned it was a Captain with US Airways and his comments about its flight characteristics were telling.
- It is fast and you have to fly it all the time.
- The first landing was challenge because you are sitting on the runway, probably 12? off the pavement.
- You can?t let your mind wonder when flying this thing.

I did see him fly it over the house a few times and it was FAST. Due to its small size, it may have actually been slower than the impression it left in my mind. Kind of the opposite of seeing a C5 come in to land, they look like they are moving about 5 MPH on short final. I think he said he put somewhere around 50 hours on it before selling it.

On thing he did say was that he didn?t trust the engine and he didn?t want to EVER have an off airport landing in the thing.

Still, having a BD-5J would be SO cool!

The funny part of it was our subdivision does not allow boats, campers, or any type of trailers in your driveway. When the neighbors on his street found out he was working on this thing in his driveway/carport they tried to get the home owners association to pressure him to move it. Turns out, our convents never thought anyone would have an airplane in their driveway so there was nothing they could do. :D
 
One Our Chapter Members is Building One

Jack bought the kit back in the time that the BD-5 was introduced. He started it but his business demands forced him to set it aside. Now he has retired and he is working on it to complete what he started decades ago. He is a nice guy that is physically and mentally suited for the task. Man, I hope it works out well for him. I have never seen one fly but I sure hope this one makes it.

Bob Axsom
 
Mel said:
SNIP I'm still looking for one to build and use as a "wind T" for my airport.
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Like this :)
bd5.jpg
 
Quit 20:20 hindsighting for a minute.

When that BD5J flew into OSH for the first time, I can tell you there was not a pilot on the grounds that didn't have some desire to fly it. It was a beautiful thing. The demonstration flight in front of the crowd was really impressive. Up until the clamshells jambed on final and he landed short. Still, the wing was strong enought to take a hit from a runway light post and survive without spewing jetfuel.

You need to remember the timing of all this. The quickbuild "RVs" of the day were the T-18 or the BD-4, both good airplanes. EZ's were just coming out. Glasairs and Lancairs were a pipe dream.

Sure, I wanted one. Like everybody else did.
 
according to the stone

According to the stone, it was a good day to fly the day that picture was taken.
 
BD-5J Range?

I remember seeing the Coors Silver Bullet at a Tennessee Aviation Days Air Show over 20 years ago, and IIRC, they said the combination of fuel consumption and tank capacity limited the plane to something like 45 minutes of flying time. So it needed a trailer because it was basically an air show plane.

My first exposure to a homebuilt plane was a fellow engineer back in the 70's who was building a BD-5 in his apartment. He got smart and sold it when he realized there was a problem with the engine/drive shaft/prop configuration. He went on to become a Delta pilot (737's and ultimately 757's and 767's).

Sadly, he died rather suddenly of bladder cancer about 5 years ago just before his retirement age of 60. I still miss him.
Don
 
Weather Forecasting Stone

Could someone tell us what the "Weather Forecasting Stone" sign says? This has got to be good.
Don
 
IIRC this is at the Kern Valley Airport (LO5).

It says...
Stone Wet - Raining
Stone Dry - Not Raining
Shadow on Ground - Sunny
White on Top - Snowing
Can't See Stone - Foggy
Swinging Store - Windy
Stone Jumping Up & Down - Earthquake
Stone Gone - Tornado
 
That BD5 weathervane is at Kern Valley, CA (L05) I forget the specifics on the weather rock but is something to the effect of:

if its wet, its raining
if its swinging, its windy
if its white, its snowing
ect.
 
BD-5

After seeing the BD-5J at an airshow in the early 90's
I always thought it would be the plane I would build-then a
wife came along so I built the RV.

Now the shops been empty for a while and guess what
is sitting in it about half done. Well, it's not the BD-5J
version but it it a BD-5. Just about ready to sit on the
gear.

Not to sure if I will ever fly it(Yeah Right) I am sure if
I finish it - It will get in the air.
 
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BD-5J Damage from Horse Trailer ride

When I was 18 in 1976 a friend and I flew up to South Bend, IN for an airshow. Since we flew we got to park our plane on the opposite side of the field near were the BD-5J team was set-up. They had 2 planes at the show but only one flew. Before we left we stopped in and talked to the pilots and crew and they explained why one was grounded. They transported the two tiny planes inside of a horse trailer. When the arrived at the show and tried to put the wings on one of them the bolt holes did not line up, apparently from a significant bump they hit on the road. As a young pilot I really loved the idea of a micro fighter of my own but would consider twice after this experience.
 
Jame Bond

According to wikipedia there are 150 airworthy and 30 flying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bede_BD-5


All I know is as a young man the opeining of James Bond - Octopussy, were Roger Moore [1] flys through a hanger than lands on a road and rolls out to a gas station with a BD-5 jet made a BIG impression on me.

[1] J.W. "Corkey" Fornof was the stunt pilot who performed the scene in which the aircraft flew through a hangar. His last stunt pilot movie credit was M:I-2 (mission impossible 2) 2000. Here is a "Corkey" website:

http://www.corkeyfornof.com/

yhst-80411486108448_1944_483271
 
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lcnmrv8r said:
I seems that I remeber some of the BD5's were converted into a motorcycle/car conversion. They put outriggers on the stub wings and used a motorcycle engine drive assembly. Don't remember what it was called.
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That was the BD-200 car developed by Bede as a comuter vehicle.
 
BD-5 experience

While in USAF pilot training class 74-01 {Aug 72-73} at Moody AFB,Ga., Bede had so convinced a group of young Lts. that about 6 of us ordered BD-5s. The plan was to build them in our BOQ rooms that year. Based on his pronouncements, we actually thought we could do it that year! How naive!

A local actually got his kit and the next year I helped him build the fuselage. When I realized the dream promised was mostly vapor, I traded my BD-5 position for a BD-4 position which I sold and later was built and flown.

That's one of the reasons I love the RVs so much-no bogus promises. Van speaks little yet delivers. In his own words,Bede 'talked 60 words per minute with gusts to 120.' That was in a little promo film Bede sent the hopeful.
 
There is a BD5 at the museum hangar at Kingman, AZ. I wanted to sit in it, but I was told no :(

Looks like a lot of fun, albeit dangerous fun.
 
Cool link

iwannarv said:
A couple links:
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Thanks cool. I saw the history channel show a while ago. Fun to watch again. What caught my attention is the comment at the very end about bailing out of it twice? Not sure if that was a BD5 or not.
 
I copied the following from the BD site:

POWERPLANT SYSTEMThis is a constant speed, torque
variable turboshaft engine based on Solar T-62 series components.
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Are they using an Innodyn or maybe they have succeeded where Innodyn is failing?
 
T-62 is not new.

N395V said:
Solar T-62: Are they using an Innodyn or maybe they have succeeded where Innodyn is failing?
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Hey Milt the T-62 is that small turbine used in military GPU's and APU's in such aircraft as the Chinook going back to the 1960's. People have tried to convert to a mini turbo prop with various success. The most recent efforts is to power a single seat chopper called a HELICYCLE. The older T62's you see surplus out of GPU's don't put out much power (rated 75 or 95 hp), but than the BD5 does not need much. Its a simple single stage centrifugal turbine that is cantilevered off a pretty big bulky gear box. The old ones for sale have been out of production for over 20 years. There are late model T62's with more power (160 hp), used in F-16 start carts and KC-135 apu's. The HELICYCLE uses this and derates it to 90hp. Why? I guess so it will last.

The issue is it makes all its power at 100%; below that rpm power falls of fast, so you have to keep the engine turning and somehow make the prop pitch vary with fuel input to control thrust. This is common in many turboprop setups, but you would have to design some prop and fuel controllers to do this. I suspect this is where Innodyne is having issues. They kind of assumed a MT electric prop would handle all the duties of controlling thrust with prop pitch. Well MT heard and made an official "disassociation" with this use. Turboprops that use the prop for "torque" control are always hydraulic. The complication of the prop gov and fuel controller which are often hydromechanical (mechanical computers) are complicated but very reliable.

I remember my first turboprop pilot ground school. We spent a whole day on the Turbo and Prop, negative torque-sensing, gear box and all kind of engine/prop procedures and issues. Now going through pilot training on a jet, the part on the engine is basically 5 minutes, point to engine and say, this is the engine and has X thrust. There are procedures you practice in the simulator, but they are simple compared to a turbo prop. Jets are so simple and elegant, turn it on, turn it off. The idea of a BD-5 turboprop or turboprop anything does not turn me on. I would rather have a micro jet.

There was (believe it or not) a turboprop powered Luscombe flying around to the airshows 10 years ago with a Solar T62. The people or company that was going to sell the conversion went out of business. The plane later suffered one loss of power and off field landing. Just in the last year, I saw the plane for sale with out the engine as part of a bankrupcy sale. I don't think any one bought and flew this conversion. I am sure it was not cheap to buy or fly fuel wise.

The T-62 shows up on go carts, where people just use the jet thrust to scoot around. I'm sure the thrust from exhaust is not sufficient to push even a small BD-5. The big T62 gear box is part of the engine (fuel pump).

There are other companies making little turbines and turbo props like this one. http://www.microjeteng.com/ However we are talking toys that make a max claimed 130 hp. I personally don't think are safe enough for a manned airborne vehicle. They also have small jets that make say 150 lbs of thrust. Great for large scale models. Cost? A lot; Fuel Burn? ha ha ha ha :rolleyes: May be you could put two of those 150 lb cans on the side of RV-3 or BD-5 and go fly? Can you log it as twin time? :D

I think the idea of a pure jet with the BD-5J makes more sense than a turboprop BD-5. The little Microturbo TRS-18 jet engine which powers most of the BD-5J's, was designed and intended for small "microjet's" aircraft and target drone's. I found a BD-5J for sale for $180,000 w/ a spare engine for $65,000.
 
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N999NN said:
There is a BD5 at the museum hangar at Kingman, AZ. I wanted to sit in it, but I was told no
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There's another BD-5 at the San Diego Air & Space Museum... in the Kid's section no less, parked next to a Kitfox. Since I was there on a weekday morning with no kids around, I had to act like a kid and climb in and try 'em on for size.

Man, that BD-5 is cramped... I'm average size, 6 ft and 185 lbs, and I needed a shoehorn to get in. Once seated, my shoulders were squeezed by the canopy rails and I couldn't move my legs or feet much because they were pretty much trapped in the tunnels around the nose gear well. No thanks. The Kitfox was pretty tight as well, not much shoulder room in that thing either.
 
Little Jets

Since this has deflected into small jets, in 1972 we were developing Harpoon at MDAC which had a small air breather for propulsion. Did that engine ever find its way into BD-5J consideration?

Bob Axsom
 
Similar...

Bob Axsom said:
Since this has deflected into small jets, in 1972 we were developing Harpoon at MDAC which had a small air breather for propulsion. Did that engine ever find its way into BD-5J consideration?

Bob Axsom
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Bob... sounds like an early Teledyne version of the Tomahawk engine... the type that was going to power all small planes because the cost would be cheap with mass production... :)

Same 660 lbs thrust....

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/affacts/blagm-84dharpoonmissile.htm

gil in Tucson

PS Perhaps Mahlon can get one with an employee discount... :D
 
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