D

dspender

Well Known Member
Patron
Riveting the skins of my RV10 tailcone to the stiffeners. I found it easy to back rivet as I can do this alone using a flat plate from Avery. The other option could have been to drive from the skin side bucking on the inside against the stiffeners. When I have driven from the outside on the elevator and horizontal stabilizer, sometimes I dent the skin, which I don't do by back riveting. If I run the pad of my fingers over the backriveted work, I only note a slight depression of the dimpled site. However if I pick with my finger nails, I can usually feel an edge of the rivet on one or two sides of the rivet. I have been told if I had used a Cleaveland tool dimpler instead of an Avery dimpler, I would have nicer dimples. Does it matter that I am back riveting at this location? Does it matter that with my finger nail I can usually feel an edge on at least one side of the rivet even though I feel nothing with my finger pad?
 
You may have "clinched" rivets due to the back rivet set not having enough spring pressure to press the two materials together tight and firmly.
 
No, it doesn't matter :).

Press on it sounds like you are doing a good job, and not denting the skins as you say you did on the emp surfaces by flush riveting and bucking.

My rule of thumb is:

1-back rivet anything and everything you can.
2-if you can't back rivet then use a hand squeezer
3-if you can back rivet or use a hand squeezer then use the 2X gun and a bucking bar.

Be creative with all 3 of the above!

Pnuematic squeezers are toys and not needed (or wanted) to build metal airplanes.

I use the Avery C Frame almost exclusively for these skins and a hand dimpler for the stiffeners. I have a DRDT dimpler but I ONLY USE IT to show customers what a lousy job it does :eek: :eek:. Most of the worst work I've every seen was done with a DRDT :eek:. The hammer whacker will give you nice consistent/crisp dimples every time.

I have no problem building the entire tailcone by myself as you describe so press on and keep us posted :).

dspender said:
Riveting the skins of my RV10 tailcone to the stiffeners. I found it easy to back rivet as I can do this alone using a flat plate from Avery. The other option could have been to drive from the skin side bucking on the inside against the stiffeners. When I have driven from the outside on the elevator and horizontal stabilizer, sometimes I dent the skin, which I don't do by back riveting. If I run the pad of my fingers over the backriveted work, I only note a slight depression of the dimpled site. However if I pick with my finger nails, I can usually feel an edge of the rivet on one or two sides of the rivet. I have been told if I had used a Cleaveland tool dimpler instead of an Avery dimpler, I would have nicer dimples. Does it matter that I am back riveting at this location? Does it matter that with my finger nail I can usually feel an edge on at least one side of the rivet even though I feel nothing with my finger pad?
Click to expand...
 
[ed. Cleaned up some tags that got mangled by another mod - I hope I didn't screw this up too bad (apologies if I did) dr]


Over the years, they have sold a lot of these "toys" to the aviation industry, from us lowly homebuilders to major aircraft manufacturers.

Just Sayin'..........
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thank you for the encouragement. I really do enjoy the building process and much to my wife's surprise, I am still behaving as a responsible husband and grandfather should behave. A couple of years ago Mr selfish wouldn't have been as responsive to family needs as I am now. After all family needs are more important than this pile of fickle metal that I enjoy cutting, drilling, and squeezing so much. BTW, what is a "clinched" rivet?
 
if the rivets start to expand in-between... the two parts that you are riveting together .. i.e. you are not pressing both parts together hard enough...

then your rivet will not have been set 'fully' in the hole .. and may ride up
 
back riveting question - skins to longerons

I'm not familiar with -10 construction so the answer might already be in the OP's question.

Is it feasible to back rivet the top skin to the longeron with someone outside holding the back riveting plate along the line of rivets, someone inside with the gun and back riveting set?? It sounds like it might work but I don't want to experiment if informed opinion is " NO WAY"!!!

My only helper at present is a stepson with (I'm sure he wouldn't mind me saying) zero mechanical skill.......

Thanks

Chris

RV-8 complete, flown, sold
RV-4 bought half built, remediation in progress
 
chris mitchell said:
My only helper at present is a stepson with (I'm sure he wouldn't mind me saying) zero mechanical skill.......

Thanks

Chris

RV-8 complete, flown, sold
RV-4 bought half built, remediation in progress
Click to expand...

Teach him to operate the rivet gun. As long as he is physically big enough to keep pressure on the gun, he can drive those rivets. Even if he puts a ding or two in the work he will have the satisfaction of knowing he built or performed a major repair on the airplane. I think that the risk of a ding is a fairly small admission price.

In the grand scheme of things, these opportunities to teach and spend time with the kids don't come along very often in life.

And yes, my son Alex is my rivet partner.
 
rv6rick said:
I have a DRDT dimpler but I ONLY USE IT to show customers what a lousy job it does :eek: :eek:. Most of the worst work I've every seen was done with a DRDT :eek:. The hammer whacker will give you nice consistent/crisp dimples every time.
Click to expand...


Poor workmanship is poor workmanship. Seen bad hammer work too, but the DRDT may be more prone to poor adjustment and usage per your point.

Poor DRDT dimples would be the same as poor ones done by a hand squeezer.

I used a DRDT and challenge ANYBODY to find a rivet installation on my polished bird that is not as flush as any figure 8 creating c-frame.
 
Chris Mitchell I purchased a large round bucking bar from Cleaveland tools and use that for backriveting. It works great. I plan to purchase a new set of dimpling dies from Cleaveland and understand they sell another set of dimpling dies to use when dimpling the underlying structures like stiffeners. The additional die evidently dimples a slightly larger dimple to accommodate the overlying slightly smaller dimple in the skin. Maybe not necessary, but these projects are about learning as well as completing and ultimately flying.
 
Thanks for the comments and the link to the Avery bar. I've looked at the Cleaveland one as well.
I agree - its about learning new skills and ways of using tools. I think I'll get one of the bars and also the substructure dimplers -.

Thanks

Chris
 
In support of what Rick said a few posts ago, I wanted to give reinforcement about the improper use of a DRDT.

I visited a build recently and saw a DRDT there. Went over for a look and saw it was terribly misadjusted such that the toggle clamp was not even close to going over center (where it provides the vast majority of clamping force). This is the guaranteed formula for under formed dimples.

Sure enough, a feel across some finished rivet lines showed proud rivet heads. Yeah, its safe, but its not show.

Maybe I should not speak for Paul since it is his design, but I found that the device worked best when the toggle snapped VERY smartly into locked position. The "C" frame needs to have enough load on it so that you can easily see it spread apart. That is where the coining forces come from. Its my belief that one cannot build that much force with the DRDT not in proper adjustment and just using "armstrong" to make it the dimple. When I was using it, there was a "pop" "pop" as the toggle went in and out of lock. Good dimples result.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.