Scott Spangler

I'm New Here
For July issue of Avionics News, which will be distributed at EAA AirVenture, I?m writing a survey story about the avionics and instruments people put in their warbirds, vintage, and homebuilt aircraft. Because RVs predominate in the homebuilt fleet, I thought what better place to find answers to my questions:

Specifically, what make, model, and year RV do you own, and what make and model communication, navigation, surveillance radios, and/or instruments are in your panel?

Why did you decide on this equipment?

Did you buy new or used equipment?

Who did the install, you or an avionics shop?

Is this an original installation or an upgrade?

If upgrading, what equipment are you replacing?

You can respond here in the forum or send me a message, and I?d appreciate it if you would provide your full name and hometown.

Thanks for your help!
Scott Spangler
 
Welcome to VAF!!!!

Scott, welcome aboard:D

I decided the general design of the panel early on, kept watch on who and what was available in the market. I keep refining my equip list as products came available or went away----sadly many companys and products do evaporate.

In the end, it was moot, as I ended up with buying a mostly done kit, with a minimum panel already included. I used that as a starting point, and filled it out to my liking.

The best advice I can offer is to wait as long as you can to make any purchases in the avionics arena.

Early info gathering, and general design parameters is fine, but wait to make the final decisions.
 
Thanks, Mike! It's good to be here.

Why do you suggest waiting? And wait how long?

Thanks!

Scott

Not to answer for Mike, but you wait because the state of Avionics is constantly in flux these days. If you decide on your avionics two years in advance...you will already be behind the curve when you finish your plane. New technologies and capabilities are coming out all the time and competition is really driving prices down....or at least increasing the bang for your buck. With some of the E-AB targeted (not-TSO) Avionics out there now, the competition has been great for us consumers. I am already resigned to the fact that I will wait til the last minute, buy my avionics, and know that a few years after its flying it will probably be out-dated again! :) Its a revolutionary time for Avionics development right now.
 
I am already resigned to the fact that I will wait til the last minute, buy my avionics, and know that a few years after its flying it will probably be out-dated again! :) Its a revolutionary time for Avionics development right now.


They won't be outdated. You'll just think the latest greatest stuff is "better"
 
They won't be outdated. You'll just think the latest greatest stuff is "better"

hahaha, yes, this is probably true! I am a gadget freak...always gotta have the newest gadget. So take my comments with a grain of salt!
 
I'll answer the easy past first: All new, and I installed everything. My 9A first flew in early '07.

Original equipment included: XCOM 760 com radio (best bang for the buck and contains intercom,) Dynon D-10A EFIS (state of the air when bought in mid '06,) AFS 2500 engine monitor (ditto as 10A,) Trio EZpilot AP and Alt Hold (liked the capabilities and price,) and AvMap EKP IV GPS (better deal than the Garmins.) Had top quality backups (Allied alt, VSI, etc.)

1st upgrade, '08: Added a VAL 429 VOR/GS. Better price than Narco and takes little panel space. Also doubles as CDI for 430W.

Current upgrade: Adding Garmin 430W and PMA5000EX audio panel. Upgrading to Trio ProPilot (removing EZpilot and ALt Hold) 430 adds huge to IFR capability and ProPilot adds vertical steering.

Future upgrade: Will remove altimeter and VSI and add GRT HX EFIS. (probably within two years.)

Waited on the 430 because of cost. I also believe everyone should wait as long as possible to buy electronics.

Bob Kelly
 
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Waiting is good!

I was one of the early purchasers of OP intigrated panel. If I had waited a bit the problems that they had would have surfaced and I could have saved myself lots of problems. The folks with Blue Mountain and many other companies can relate.

The other side of wait is wait until there are lots of examples of what you are contemplating buying on the flight line at OSH and most of the owners are happy with their choice. Let the other guys be the bata testers! Bata testing for most of us is very frustrating.

In the end I ended up with a Garmin 900x with a Dynon backup in my RV10. For the most part I love it. It does have some limitations imposed by its certified heritage. (no private airports in the database, I live on one and winter at another) but on a whole it is a trememdous system.

Gary Specketer
 
Glass Panel

IMG_5618.jpg


- TruTrak EFIS with Auto Pilot Level 3
- GPS Map 696 (provides the moving map and AP Track to follow)
- Lift Reserve Indicator (secondary air source for back up)
- PS Engineering PMA9000EX Audio Panel
- SL30 Nav/Com (Comm1)
- iCom A210 (Comm2)
- GTX330 Transponder (Mode S with TIS traffic, will display traffic on 696)
- TruTrak EFIS, full back up EFIS screen on passenger side

This equipment is all new, going into to RV9A. I am still building, and hope to complete this year. I just finished putting the cowling on, and have started the engine baffling.

Building this panel was several years, and several trips to Oshkosh in the making. I kept comparing the screen displays and features of all the vendors. In the end, I chose TruTrak for two reasons. First, I love the semi round display for airspeed and altimeter. It just seems easier to understand then the tapes. I also like the fact that they are a trusted source for Auto Pilots, and the auto pilot functions are built into the EFIS system. For me, it is simple yet elegant. That fits my mission statement. It's ok to use advanced technology, as long as the flying part is still simple.

As for installation, that's all me. I considered having the wiring done by a pro, but decided I needed to learn how to take care of that task as well. In the beginning, I didn't know how to rivet either... that is part of the process. You learn as you go.
 
Hi Scott,

I have Terra/Trimble nav/coms, and audio panel
Garmin GTX320A transponder
TruTrak autopilot
United instruments altimeter and VSI
Narco DGO-10 HSI
Brand X (RC Allen clone) electric attitude indicator

Why did you decide on this equipment?
I bought all of it on ebay, and I thought it was the most bang-for-the-buck.
In a past life I used to service and install communication equipment (C.B. and commercial FM), so I was able to fix most of the electronics that needed it. The stuff I couldn't fix, I made sure I could return if it was defective.

Did you buy new or used equipment?
All used, some refurbished/yellow-tagged.


Who did the install, you or an avionics shop?
I installed/am installing it.

Is this an original installation or an upgrade?
Original

There is a saying that a true sports car doesn't have anything that doesn't make it go faster. You might extend that to stop faster too, but you get the idea. While that isn't entirely true of a sports plane, I think it's pretty close. And it seems to be Van's philosophy. I know from this forum that most will disagree. I'd rather have good-enough avionics and more money in the bank.

All the best,
Tom Costanza
Langhorne PA
 
My non-RV started out with ancient instruments, literally WW2 vintage. A 360-channel KX170 (nav side was never used), a Bendix T12 ADF and "shout loud" intercom.

I've since updated the panel myself with a Dynon D100 EFIS, Lowrance 2000c GPS, Icom A210 comm, Garmin GTX320 transponder and a SoftComm vox intercom. This is a beautifully integrated VFR panel, and I may yet install the Dynon autopilot servos.

If I were doing it all again today I would install the MGL V10 comm radio (best intercom in the business from what I've experienced), an AvMap EKP-IV GPS (because Lowrance is out of the aviation business) and a GTX327 transponder if money would allow. If I felt really rich I'd throw in a Narco 122 or VAL 429 integrated VOR/ILS receiver/indicator just to get a source of non-GPS nav info.

As for the wiring, I've made my living as an avionics guy so wiring was a no-brainer. Given the really crappy audio I often hear from homebuilts I wish more homebuilders would pay a professional to do their audio wiring. Just my two cents...
 
Specifically, what make, model, and year RV do you own, and what make and model communication, navigation, surveillance radios, and/or instruments are in your panel?

Why did you decide on this equipment?
Scott-I'm sure you're already aware of this, but it's pretty important that your conclusions of what RV'ers put in their panels is not limited to data derived from us here on VAF. While a lot of RV'ers do follow the forums, those that do are probably biased toward toward newer technology. There are a whole lot of other RVers who don't spend much time on the internet (especially forums) and they are much likely to have the standard 6 pack type of instruments.

Regardless, good luck with your study. I'll look forward to reading the results.
 
Way back in Jan 09 my panel looked like this.

1000407sy9.jpg


I had not even start to build the fuse yet.
Now in march 2010

p2272031.jpg


So thats one upgrade for me, and I have not finished it yet.
Im installing it all myself as thats my trade. ( electronics tech ).

Eq list.
2 x 10" dynon skyview Efis, garmin 327 transponder, Icom A200 ( used ), SPA-400 intercom.

I cut out the panel myself with just hand tools.

I would say, if you are building a slow build like myself, dont get radios, instruments etc until you have the fuse ready for the panel to be installed. Another point is that if you dont live in the USA, you had better find out what basic instruments are needed for your area, or you may find you need extra holes in the panel.

well thats my 2c
 
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general comments
generally, i agree with what everybody chimes in on trying to do avionics last and waiting for the last possible moment. there's so much new stuff coming out and ever more features for the same price available.

HOWEVER, do not wait with planning and closely monitor the market from the beginning. at one point decide on a "design freeze" and stick to what you have, even if there's new developments in the meantime. also, expect high levels of frustration when trying to plan ahead only based on documentation/paper/theory. some documentation in the avionics sector is marginal at best and lots of things can only be reliably planned once you have at least the cradles and/or connectors in hand.

there are other hurdles, e.g. the damned high density d-sub connector on the garmin transponder requiring special tools and very expensive pins, while everybody else seems to have settled on regular d-sub. same goes for a few types of antenna connectors.

and even with careful planning and considering all installation manuals and best practices, there will be lots to troubleshoot, audio noise is such an example or differing wiring styles of serial grounds. also, rs-232 is not necessarily rs-232 by the specs... problems with signal level drops and such...

regarding the physical planning, a 3d solid cad model certainly helps. however, the substructure can be a pain to integrate.
for the actual cutting of the panel, IMHO there is no way around cad / laser or waterjet cutting. the final result justifies the extra expense.

model, year
RV-7A, expected first flight very soon (only paperwork remaining)

panel
our panel is about as stuffed as one can get it ;-)
p1010895.jpg


sources, new?
bought all the stuff from various sources on the internet, some steinair, some pacific coast, some from advanced and vertical power directly.
all new.

installer
installed all of it on our own, with the exception of some rough pre-made harnesses.

original or upgrade
original installation.

equipment and reasons
Advanced Flight Systems AF3400EF and AF3400EM synthethic vision models.
great track record of the company, innovative products, nice graphics resembling the airliner type EFIS symbology, highest level of integration (besides GRT and the more expensive garmin stuff) in the market (flight director etc...). although dynon is now catching up in leaps, this was not the case at time of planning. high quality AHRS. form factor enabling enough space for all the screens. flexibility of the owner to cooperate with the AFCU "pet project". documentation is about average, some of it is excellent (installation of probes e.g.), some areas could be better and reflect software changes more closely.

Advanced Flight Systems AOA
no stall warning per default on the RV. the reason we didn't get it integrated with the efis (as is now available) is a good example for not to buy avionics too early. we had purchased it when doing the wings for the probe install.
don't mind the separate indication / system independence however

Garmin GMA340 Audio Panel
GMA240 would fit the mission just as well and cheaper, but again, that wasn't out yet when we started planning. also, one of the avionics that we purchased early on (maybe a bit too early).

Garmin SL-30
the logical choice when one decides not to use a gns430. (cheaper, didn't require a certified gps, tight on space)
serial interface makes wiring relatively easy, because the cdi also operates through the serial. also uses standard d-sub connectors which are easy to wire. great features all in one unit.

Garmin GTX-328 Transponder
mode-s requirement in europe. pretty much standard, little competition in the market, only from lesser known companies that unfortunately have either price or performance problems. pain in the *** high density d-sub connector. also, documentation is poor and there are undocumented incompatibilities with gps data formats (no nmea apparently!)

ICOM IC-A200
simply wanted a full and simple com2 panel mount
good bang for the buck while blending into the stack.
wiring somewhat tricky, different connectors, documentation minimal.

Vertical Power VP200 electrical system
a bit of a risk as we are early adopters. basically convinced us in person/demo at their first oshkosh appearance. completely new way to do the electrical system. have only praises so far. works like a charm with awesome features and greatly adding to the "airliner" feel. at the same time it made wiring/installation simpler. no competition yet in this segment.
excellent documentation from A to Z.

Trutrak Flight Systems Autopilot AFS Pilot.
the only autopilot compatible with a high level of integration (vertical commands from flight director) at time of planning.
ezpilot did not have the vertical features and dynon only just launched their autopilot (with teething troubles that were to be expected).

AFCU and MapPC "pet projects"
These two units cannot be purchased off the shelf and are our own side-projects. The MapPC is essentially an embedded pc with a display and interface unit. This base allows us to experiment and advance our navigation system into the future all the while being fully integrated with the EFIS and therefore autopilot.
The AFCU is simply a remote control unit for the efis to simplify mode selection and make up for the lack of discrete rotary knobs for each function.

good luck on your study!
bernie
Buelach, Switzerland
 
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My six pack panel came with the plane along with a Garmin GNS430 and Rocky Mountain engine monitor. I upgraded to a 430W and added a Trio EZ Pilot and Altitude hold.

While new RV aircraft are probably close to 100% glass, I have been all over the country, to the Bahamas, Caymans and Mexico with what some would consider outdated instruments.
 
Not to answer for Mike, but you wait because the state of Avionics is constantly in flux these days. If you decide on your avionics two years in advance...you will already be behind the curve when you finish your plane. New technologies and capabilities are coming out all the time and competition is really driving prices down....or at least increasing the bang for your buck. With some of the E-AB targeted (not-TSO) Avionics out there now, the competition has been great for us consumers. I am already resigned to the fact that I will wait til the last minute, buy my avionics, and know that a few years after its flying it will probably be out-dated again! :) Its a revolutionary time for Avionics development right now.

Excellent points! Thanks!
 
Scott-I'm sure you're already aware of this, but it's pretty important that your conclusions of what RV'ers put in their panels is not limited to data derived from us here on VAF. While a lot of RV'ers do follow the forums, those that do are probably biased toward toward newer technology. There are a whole lot of other RVers who don't spend much time on the internet (especially forums) and they are much likely to have the standard 6 pack type of instruments.

Regardless, good luck with your study. I'll look forward to reading the results.

Yup, I'm aware, and the good folks here at VAF are just one of several sources I'm using for the story. I'm also working several homebuilt, vintage, and warbird online groups, custom panel builders, and several decades worth of cockpit explorations at Oshkosh.