[RNB]

If one were to buy a used RV10, how difficult would it be to upgrade the panel? Would the services that build wiring, panel itself, and bench test be able to handle things still?

 

[Mike S]

There is no good way to answer the question.

What upgrades do you have in mind? What brand?

Does the plane have a glass panel in it now, and would you plan to upgrade to a newer/better glass panel? Some brands like GRT are plug and play with the wiring harness when upgrading, some are not.

There are a lot of places to get a new panel built, depending on what you are looking for. Advanced has a sweet setup, but you need to use their stuff. Steinair is well known for their panels. Aerotronics is another well known provider.

As far as wiring the panel,any of the above will do it. Integrating the new panel into the airframe is a whole new ball of wax--------or not. Depends on how the plane was wired in the first place.

https://www.steinair.com/

http://www.aerotronics.com/

Advanced Flight Systems

Welcome to Advanced Flight Systems - the premier, concierge-class provider of avionics solutions for your experimental aircraft.

www.advancedflightsystems.com

 

[RNB]

There is no good way to answer the question.

What upgrades do you have in mind? What brand?

Does the plane have a glass panel in it now, and would you plan to upgrade to a newer/better glass panel? Some brands like GRT are plug and play with the wiring harness when upgrading, some are not.

There are a lot of places to get a new panel built, depending on what you are looking for. Advanced has a sweet setup, but you need to use their stuff. Steinair is well known for their panels. Aerotronics is another well known provider.

As far as wiring the panel,any of the above will do it. Integrating the new panel into the airframe is a whole new ball of wax--------or not. Depends on how the plane was wired in the first place.

https://www.steinair.com/

http://www.aerotronics.com/

Advanced Flight Systems

Welcome to Advanced Flight Systems - the premier, concierge-class provider of avionics solutions for your experimental aircraft.

www.advancedflightsystems.com

So, I am considering just buying an RV10. I currently fly with a 172 with G3x, 750xi GPS and the 500 series AP. Used RV10s seem to not be equipped with much Garmin, so want to know what the worse case scenarios could be buying used (engine/avionics)

 

[flysrv10]

I hvave updated my panel from GRT, to Advance and then to G3X on my Rv10. If you have the stock Vans aluminum panel, it is not hard at all. once you remove the aluminum panel, you have great access to the sub panel to route wiring and secure equipment. If you have aftermarket panel, like Aerosport panels, I think it is not as easy.

I measured and created a drawing for harness fabrication and sent it off to an avionic shop. I then installed the equipment myself. PM me if you want copy or more info.

 

[Auburntsts]

So, I am considering just buying an RV10. I currently fly with a 172 with G3x, 750xi GPS and the 500 series AP. Used RV10s seem to not be equipped with much Garmin, so want to know what the worse case scenarios could be buying used (engine/avionics)

Luck of the draw I guess as there’s rarely more than a few 10’s on the market at any given time. Garmin avionics are very popular in the RV world and RV-10s are no exception (my own 10’s panel is a 2-screen non-touch G3X, GTN 650, SL 30, and a G5). That said Dynon/AFS are just as popular followed by GRT. All good systems but you get into Ford vs Chevy vs Toyota territory with most championing their brand of choice. Upgrading can be a lot of work depending on how much you changing out, your budget, your knowledge/experience, and last but not least the state of the wiring in the plane. Wiring isn’t particularly difficult (I wired my panel and like the whole build I had to learn how OTJ), but it can be tedious especially when you have to do work behind the panel in the plane. Buying a while completed panel is a partial solution as you still have to install and integrate it into the exis wiring and systems.

 

[MacCool]

If one were to buy a used RV10, how difficult would it be to upgrade the panel? Would the services that build wiring, panel itself, and bench test be able to handle things still?

I would call a panel builder. My first choice would be Advanced Flight Systems and I'd definitely be talking with them about panel planning and cost. I'm a huge fan of their Advance Control Module. Rob Hickman has been around forever, and AFS is now part of Dynon. He knows RVs and in fact owns an RV10, which is featured in their literature. Class act for sure. My second choice would be Stein Bruch at Steinair. They are also RV-knowledgeable and absolutely top-notch. Thrid choice would be Jason at Aerotronics. Finally, you could design and build yourself...but personally, that hold no appeal for me.

 

[MikeinPhoenix]

I just finished a 10 month upgrade of my RV9A from a VFR Dynon panel to an IFR Garmin G3X panel. I used the “services” to build the harnesses and cut the panel, but it was still a big project to “de-wire” the plane (which I didn’t build) and rewire for a new system. I wouldn’t discourage anyone from doing it, but it was a much more time-consuming project than I expected. Plan accordingly! Good luck with your project.

 

[Walt]

3 options:
Do it all yourself. ($$) time=++++
Order what I call ‘panel in a box’ and install it yourself. ($$$) time=+++
Drop it off and let an experienced shop do the complete retrofit, turnkey operation like myself ($$$$). time=0

I have an RV10 currently in work with full Garmin install.
This was my last RV7 that left a short time ago, the 10 design is basically the same.

 

[PhatRV]

If one were to buy a used RV10, how difficult would it be to upgrade the panel? Would the services that build wiring, panel itself, and bench test be able to handle things still?

I was a complete novice when I built my panel. It's only for a VFR airplane. As I recall, the work to perform the avionic built planning, reading the manuals, panel cutting, wiring, bench testing, debugging, airplane installation, checkout, more debugging, all of these tasks took me longer than building the set of wings for my RV8.

 

[RNB]

Is there anything different or unique about a new panel in a 10 vs the certified world such as my current 172? There don't seem to be so many access panels for things.

 

[Majorpayne317641]

The only real difference may be that you can use avionics that are “experimental” and therefore cheaper but almost the same if not exactly the same as the certified versions. The only thing that is only available as certified are the IFR navigators. Another example is you can use blade fuses instead of circuit breakers. Other than that both are similar upgrades.

 

[Auburntsts]

Is there anything different or unique about a new panel in a 10 vs the certified world such as my current 172? There don't seem to be so many access panels for things.

The only difference is cost. As mentioned, the non-certified stuff, regardless of brand, is less expensive. But even the certified stuff, like Garmin GTNs, can be cheaper if you shop around. However, the real cost is in the install labor which can easily be 2 to 3 times the cost of the boxes themselves.

 

[srothert]

The only difference is cost. As mentioned, the non-certified stuff, regardless of brand, is less expensive. But even the certified stuff, like Garmin GTNs, can be cheaper if you shop around. However, the real cost is in the install labor which can easily be 2 to 3 times the cost of the boxes themselves.

Do it yourself. It is not that hard and you will learn a lot. Investigate some "panel planning software", like XPanel. Go get Bob Nuchols book at "Aeroelectric connection"

My $.02 this morning

 

[walkman]

If one were to buy a used RV10, how difficult would it be to upgrade the panel? Would the services that build wiring, panel itself, and bench test be able to handle things still?

I've done numerous panel upgrades in RV's and certificated aircraft over the years.

One thing I have learned, if you're doing more than swapping one radio, its going to be way easier and give you much better results, to nuke from high orbit and start over. That is, literally tear everything out from the buss blocks on up. You might even consider the redesign of the power and ground busses to meet your mission.

Build the whole panel on the bench including all your new harnesses, do as much testing as you can there, then fork lift the whole mess into the plane.

 

[bruceh]

I just finished up my own panel upgrade to add IFR capabilities to my formerly VFR only Skyview panel. I added the Skyview AP panel unit, Garmin GNC 215 Nav/Com and GPS 175.
A new panel was cut by hand, and I fabricated a new carbon fiber veneer using vacuum bagging that goes over the aluminum panel. New labels were dry transfer type, then covered with matte Clear UV spray lacquer. I had to add the Archer VOR/GS/ILS wingtip antenna, and a new Garmin GA-35 antenna. New wiring was done for the Garmin stuff, and I had to depin 8 wires from the VP-X system for the trim system, which moved over to the Skyview AP panel unit for auto trim capability. The total time spent on all of these was around 135 hours over 6 weeks. It is very time consuming, but I had everything completely planned out before starting. It is just a wire at a time. Redoing existing panels is something I've done now 4 times on different airplanes and it takes WEEKS/MONTHS to plan and execute. I'm working on another blog post about this latest project, so stay tuned...

Bottom line, it is very doable, but expecting it to be plug and play by buying a panel/harness from a supplier and being ready-to-go in a couple of weeks is a fantasy. It will be a total pain in the butt to rewire the existing rats nest of wiring in your panel, and it will take lots of time, tools, energy, persistence...

 

[Raiz]

To the OP: Absolutely it's feasible to upgrade an RV-10 panel. There is nothing that can't be done. Bear in mind, though, that the electrical installations in experimental planes are much more variable than in a certified aircraft, and the documentation of those electrical systems is often non-existent. It may be less work to design a new system than to modify the existing one.

So, to your question about the worst case scenario, it would be a rewire, new avionics and new panel. You can do all of that yourself, if you have the time and inclination, or you could buy it all from a shop (but pick one that does a lot of experimental stuff) or anything between those 2 extremes. Worst case, buy it all, with dual G3X and a GTN750Xi, a/p panel, 2nd radio, engine monitor and associated sensors, backup EFIS, AHRS, ARINC interface, panel machining, audio panel, AoA etc the parts will probably be close to $40k. I wouldn't be surprised if the labor cost a similar amount for a complete redo, but others here will have better info on labor costs than I do. On the other hand, it you buy a -10 with a sound, well documented electrical system, a stock Vans panel and some reusable bits like an audio panel, engine sensors and backup instruments, stick to a single G3X screen and install it yourself, you might do it for $25k. Some shops (I think SteinAir is one) will do a wiring design for you for a modest fee, which takes a lot of the head scratching out of the process.

 

[BCP Boys]

One of the considerations that I don't think anyone has mentioned is if you want an IFR panel that you plan to fly in what people consider "hard IFR".
My thought on this is that almost anyone can build a nice glass VFR panel with some patience. You can make a mistakes and get away with it in a VFR panel (as long as nothing is smoking). However, if you are planning on flying a full IFR machine and I would imagine in an RV10 it's a good possibility that you are, then it's worth you and your passenger's lives to get it done professionally. At the very least, do a panel in a box as Walt mentioned.

 

[Carl Froehlich]

Upgrading an RV-10 panel can be done by most people. I believe too many builders hear horror stories on panel builds and don’t ever consider doing the work. Panel building is not for everyone, but it is perfectly viable for many. Make this your first decision.

Some thoughts:
- Today’s glass panels are not nearly as wire intensive as the old six pack days. For example the GTN-650 has over 300 pins on it, most are there to be meet TSO requirement to feed analog signals to analog instruments. I’ve done several GTN-650 panels integrating with the SkyView system. The main interface is digital (ARINC) and serial. The total pin use is a tenth of the available pins.
- The nice thing about RV-10s is the stock panel fully supports having a removable top portion. Here all the wiring and panel interconnections can be done on the bench. The other nice thing is this translates to never on your back with your head under the panel. I strongly recommend you keep this as a design objective. If you use a shop ask them how they would support this. If the answer is they can’t, find another shop.
- While there are many good shops to build you a panel, this tends to mean that you are now tied to that shop every time you want to modify anything (and you will want to do that). If you do use a shop first ask them to show you the documentation of the last similar panel they did. Does that documentation provide you confidence that you can do future modifications and maintenance?
- There are many choices when you do a panel. Try not to buy big clunky rocker switches, they take up too much room and for the RV-10 do not fit in the lower apron (another aspect supporting a removable panel). If you scrap the per plans RV-10 panel for a nice carbon fiber product or such you are off to the races.
- As has been suggested, depending on what you are getting to start with often it is best to not try to salvage the old wire harness and such.
- Cost. I just bought full dual EFIS SkyView components with all the associated boxes (auto pilot servos, Dynon radio as comm #2, ADS-b receiver, ARINC, EMS with probes, etc.. I got another new GTN-650 to go with it. Total bill for everything was just under $39K. The last panel I built was 2019 and the price was a lot less so be prepared for sticker shock.

Side note. On the RV-10 the center rib behind the panel really screws you up trying to fit something like a GTN-650 between the two EFIS displays. A GPS-175 or similar fits, but then you need to find a home for a NAV/Comm if you want to do LOC/ILS approaches. I did a mod to the center rib allowing the 650 to move up a little. You want it high as it makes fat fingering the last ATC routing change easier. A couple of photos using a wood box mock up for the 650 are attached. Note - in the photos the top forward skin is upside down on the bench. The piece of 1/8” aluminum is the reinforcement to the trimmed rib.

As alternative you can move the left EIFS display over enough such that the GTN-650 fits just to the left of the center rib. I did that on the first RV-10, but that forced the left EFIS display to not be as high as possible as it still had to fit below the curve of the glare sheild. Doing the center rib mod allowed the EFIS displays to be an inch or so higher.
Carl

 

[thodgdon]

I’m in exactly this situation (see panel) and am following this thread as I research options…

 

[jclark]

If one were to buy a used RV10, how difficult would it be to upgrade the panel? Would the services that build wiring, panel itself, and bench test be able to handle things still?

I have done multiple panel "upgrades".
I suggest that you establish:
1. How much $$MONEY$$ are you willing to spend.
2. How much TIME are you willing to spend.
3. What, if anything, in the current panel can serve as a basis for upgrade, IF you choose to stay with that brand.

I have done quick, "add to the rats nest" upgrades (wish now that I had not) and "rip everything out" (took months) that I am glad that I did.

Also, there have been some wisely chosen upgrade within the EXISTING family that went well and was least painful.