[1001001]

So, RViators, I have a question I am hoping I can get some advice on. I started flying a couple of years ago after putting it off for a decade too long. Back when, I got very interested in building an aircraft and learning to fly, but somehow convinced myself I didn't have the time or money (looking back, that is partly true and partly not). I find myself in a situation where I have a great space where I could build a plane (a restored barn that could probably hold about three active RV projects), some free time, and possibly enough money if I exercise proper discipline.

Currently I own and fly a Piper Warrior II in which I am working on my instrument rating. It's a great plane for its purpose, and I'll be sad to part with it some day, but it doesn't really fit my "mission," which is a cross country machine with moderate lifting capacity. My family is spread out and I do a fair amount of regional travel for my work which involves trips that are too short to justify an airline ticket but too long to drive comfortably all that often. I need a plane that will get me places fast and with the capacity to bring along some friends and family. The RV-10 seems like a good fit.

I am confident that I have and/or can develop the skills necessary to build an RV, but I'm not certain I can do it in a tight enough time frame to enable me to transition from the Warrior as soon as I would like. I see myself having the following options, and would like some advice, if any would care to give it. I intend to continue to fly the Warrior through my instrument training, although it is not as capable as I would like, lacking an IFR certified GPS installation (it does have a vfr-only GPS and a solid radio navigation package installed).

1. I could continue to fly the Warrior without an IFR GPS but this limits me as there is only one instrument approach to my home airport that does not require GPS--sadly, the localizer approach is NOTAMed as requiring GPS because the OM is out of service indefinitely and possibly permanently. The VOR approach does not authorize circling approaches. This option saves me the most money for building the RV, but limits me to a slow platform with so-so navigation.

2. I could spend about $18k (quoted from three different avionics shops) to install a GTN 650 and a new audio panel (the shops won't touch the GTN installation without scrapping my old KMA26) but this eats into my RV building funds quite a bit, and I'm not at all convinced that putting almost 50% of what I paid for the plane into an avionics upgrade is at all a good idea.

3. I could look for a well equipped affordable replacement for the Warrior that runs faster, such as an older Arrow or even a Mooney as a stopgap option, but my experience with the Warrior tells me I would probably end up spending a fair amount getting an "affordable" plane up to my standards, interfering with the time and budget for the RV.

4. I could just outright look for an RV to purchase and fly while building a -10. A hangar neighbor of mine has a -7A for sale, but it doesn't really fit my mission, nor am I yet comfortable with the idea of buying someone else's homebuilt (absolutely no offense to anyone intended).

5. I could drop the whole idea of building and look for a solid Mooney or something else, but I really haven't found the mix of performance, customizability, and technical advancement that a homebuilt offers in a certificated design. I'm sure I could probably buy and outfit an M20J more or less to my specs for about what I would have in an RV-10 eventually but I wouldn't be able to work on it, wouldn't be able to get the exact panel I want, would probably spend a bunch more on annuals and maintenance, and wouldn't have the experience of building my own.

6. ???

Can anyone offer some sage advice? In anticipation of some great VAF help, I'm preemptively making a donation to VAF -I've already found this to be a very informative site and I thank the creators and maintainers for their dedication.

 

[jfrank71]

private message sent.

 

[gyoung]

2a. Add an older, used, considerably cheaper, IFR GPS. The GNS430W is way cheaper and with the installed base will be supported for a very long time. Something like a UPS GX-60 is IFR certified with a minimal moving map and can be had for $2K. Use a iPad if you need a bigger or more detailed map for situational awareness. You don't need state-of-the-art radios to shoot GPS approaches.

If you go the GTN route consider using Approach Systems Faststack hub and cables for the installation. Then you have the option to move it to the RV for the price of a few cables.

 

[aturner]

Hello, I've gone through a similar transition, being based in western PA and going from flying a IFR Skyhawk around the country to building a RV-10, now with 80 hours and counting. Just my approach, but there is no way I would make major investments in my certified bird if I wasn't going to keep it for a long time - you take a bit hit, financially, when you sell. And I would not get involved in the trading-up game, again, that tends to be a money loser. Unless you have money to throw down a hole, fly your Warrior as is, and spend every spare penny on the build.

Building a -10 is not a speedy proposition. Based on what I've seen here on VAF, the -14 is a great kit that will go together quite a bit faster - something to consider.

I chose to set up my -10 as a VFR machine. In my experience, a lot of people spend money on IFR capability and then don't use it. With onboard weather, I still have good cross-country capability, but this is a tradeoff that everyone will weigh differently, and it sounds like you might need the IFR capability. Just try to not fall into the trap of spending money just so you can impress folks with the size of your wallet.

If you are around Clarion, let me know,

-Andy

 

[[email protected]]

Practice in yours then rent to learn gps ifr

Keep the money in the bank, or go ahead and buy the tail and wings with the 18k.

Rent when you need to go IFR for the next few years as you build. Do most of the training for your IFR in your plane, rent if you need some practice with ifr approaches.

Just finished my 10 this year and it is a wonderful cross country machine.
Wife had put limits of the Mississippi on any trip in our 182, Just got back from Denver in the 10, and she told me we should fly to California next summer in it. Oh, and me putting a 650 in the 10 only cost 10k.

 

[N15JB]

2. I could spend about $18k (quoted from three different avionics shops) to install a GTN 650 and a new audio panel (the shops won't touch the GTN installation without scrapping my old KMA26) but this eats into my RV building funds quite a bit, and I'm not at all convinced that putting almost 50% of what I paid for the plane into an avionics upgrade is at all a good idea.

This might make sense as an interim plane, as long as you understand that you will recover only a fraction of your $18k when it comes time to sell. If you know that the Warrior is a solid plane, it might be better than buying someone else's problem.

4. I could just outright look for an RV to purchase and fly while building a -10. A hangar neighbor of mine has a -7A for sale, but it doesn't really fit my mission, nor am I yet comfortable with the idea of buying someone else's homebuilt (absolutely no offense to anyone intended).

Keep in mind that it is going to take a fair amount of time to not only keep IFR current, but proficient. Time spent flying is going to prolong the build process. The alternative is to stop flying, and dedicate yourself to completing the build. In that case, you wouldn't need any airplane.

I love my -10. It is a great X-country machine and IFR platform.

 

[BobTurner]

1. Build vs buy used: Build only because you think you will enjoy the build process. Otherwise, it will become drudgery and painful. Do not underestimate the time required. Get any spouse on-board with the time commitment. (personally I thought the build experience was great).

2. Current plane: Buy a really old TSO 129 GPS, something like the King KLN89B. It is painful to use, but you will set it up to do just one thing: identify the OM on your localizer approach. Then you're all set, except that when you take the instrument check ride the examiner will expect you to be able to use the 89B for a LNAV approach. If you do not want to learn how to use the 89B rent another plane for the check ride, one with just VORs!

 

[1001001]

To all who responded, thanks for your insights and taking the time! I have some responses and follow up questions...I'll make them separate replies below.

 

[1001001]

2a. Add an older, used, considerably cheaper, IFR GPS. The GNS430W is way cheaper and with the installed base will be supported for a very long time.

I had considered this, and it seems like it would be a good route to take, but the shops I talked to quoted almost the same to do the 430W installation, and said that the used units are selling for not much less than the new GTNs. I don't understand why, but apparently they are in high demand (probably as people like me try to upgrade older systems on the cheap).

 

[1001001]

Unless you have money to throw down a hole, fly your Warrior as is, and spend every spare penny on the build.

Building a -10 is not a speedy proposition. Based on what I've seen here on VAF, the -14 is a great kit that will go together quite a bit faster - something to consider.

I chose to set up my -10 as a VFR machine. In my experience, a lot of people spend money on IFR capability and then don't use it. With onboard weather, I still have good cross-country capability, but this is a tradeoff that everyone will weigh differently, and it sounds like you might need the IFR capability. Just try to not fall into the trap of spending money just so you can impress folks with the size of your wallet.

If you are around Clarion, let me know,

-Andy

I definitely feel that I'll need the IFR capability, as my destinations tend to require it at least to get in and out most times of the year.

I'm based at KBVI (Beaver County). If you ever make it out this way, let me know please. I'd love the opportunity to get a close up look at (and maybe sit in?) an RV-10. Pictures can only do so much. There are plenty of RVs at this airport, but so far I haven't seen a -10.

 

[1001001]

1. Build vs buy used: Build only because you think you will enjoy the build process. Otherwise, it will become drudgery and painful. Do not underestimate the time required. Get any spouse on-board with the time commitment. (personally I thought the build experience was great).

2. Current plane: Buy a really old TSO 129 GPS, something like the King KLN89B. It is painful to use, but you will set it up to do just one thing: identify the OM on your localizer approach. Then you're all set, except that when you take the instrument check ride the examiner will expect you to be able to use the 89B for a LNAV approach. If you do not want to learn how to use the 89B rent another plane for the check ride, one with just VORs!

I expect that I would enjoy the building process quite a bit, but I sincerely don't want it to become a 7- to 10-year project. If I can't complete it in less than 5 years, I would probably have an issue. Should I consider perhaps building another RV that would take less time to complete, or would that not really help me learn how to build a -10 in less time?

I do already have a KLN 89B installed in the Warrior, but the installation is placarded against IFR operation. I talked to one shop about modifying the installation but they said it would cost almost as much as installing a whole new 430W or 650.

 

[[email protected]]

I expect that I would enjoy the building process quite a bit, but I sincerely don't want it to become a 7- to 10-year project. If I can't complete it in less than 5 years, I would probably have an issue. Should I consider perhaps building another RV that would take less time to complete, or would that not really help me learn how to build a -10 in less time?

As a first time builder (built a 10), I had originally planed on building a plane in retirement. Had my mid-life crisis (43), and decided why not start building now, and plan on a slow 7-10 year build, probably using quick build wings/fuselage. As I got into the build, I found I could spend a lot more time building then I had imagined. (Have 2 kids 7-9 when started). I stopped watching TV, and never sat on the couch for 3 years unless it was a family time movie or something. Wife never complained until about the last 6 months when I got really obsessed with finishing it up. Ended up finishing it, with all slow build in 3 years. That also included me doing the paint which took 6 months, and all the wiring. 2200 hr for plane and 500 for paint.

Now I have been flying for a year, and love the plane, and am also ready to build again I enjoyed it so much.

 

[1001001]

As a first time builder (built a 10), I had originally planed on building a plane in retirement. Had my mid-life crisis (43), and decided why not start building now, and plan on a slow 7-10 year build, probably using quick build wings/fuselage. As I got into the build, I found I could spend a lot more time building then I had imagined. (Have 2 kids 7-9 when started). I stopped watching TV, and never sat on the couch for 3 years unless it was a family time movie or something. Wife never complained until about the last 6 months when I got really obsessed with finishing it up. Ended up finishing it, with all slow build in 3 years. That also included me doing the paint which took 6 months, and all the wiring. 2200 hr for plane and 500 for paint.

Now I have been flying for a year, and love the plane, and am also ready to build again I enjoyed it so much.

This sounds like how I see things happening. At the moment I have the luxury of not having children to take up a lot of time, but that may change in the next few years. I really want to do this, and I have no problem spending less time in front of the TV. I have a couple of other hobbies that don't take up more than an evening a week, and I could back off of them as needed.

As someone mentioned above, I could just sell the Warrior and focus on the build, but that would require not flying nearly as much as I'm capable of now. I'm doing this because I'm really enjoying flying and I want to have a more capable plane. I don't see staying on the ground for the duration of the build as a real option.

 

[Andrew M]

Goals

Not being IFR qualified, or flying your mission, I can't really speak to how the get "there" from "here"
My question is where can you be in 5 years, and where do you really want to be in 5 years? You already don't seem to be where you want, and the time is going to go by regardless of what you decide to do. Aim for the prize, whatever the prize may be. Whatever is sacrificed will be justified by getting what you really want. Define the end goal first, and not get caught up in the "what if's" or "I could"s"