E

eurof2

Member
Somebody forwarded this review to me about landing lights. It is pretty interesting to see the LED's did not do as well as I thought. I thought they were the new big thing, but apparently they are not all they are hyped to be.

The review is here:

http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/1309-full.html

You have to scroll WAY down to see the review, but it is pretty good info I thought.

It is right above the water powered jet pack demonstration!
 
I saw the video

My first thought was an appreciative one that someone would actually make a real video comparing all the different lights. The actual lumens value of each would be nice. I'd like to see a few other LED landing lights tested as well. I would also like to see a video on the navigation lights and the other types of lights out there. Anybody else?
Best
Brian Wallis
 
I'm not sure this is a reasonable test. One might conclude that oncoming traffic would be far LESS likely to see an aircraft with the HID lights unless they were right in the beam. And, is anyone ever taxiing so fast at night on a truly dark field that they need their lights to illuminate 300' in front of them?

Well, I agree that the LEDs aren't quite ready for prime time. For $500 I can buy a lot of replacement bulbs...

:D
 
breister said:
<snip>
Well, I agree that the LEDs aren't quite ready for prime time. For $500 I can buy a lot of replacement bulbs...

:D
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$500 ?? Ouch. Just bought an HID kit with 2 H3 bulbs (fits DW round lights), ballasts, and wiring for $70 delivered. Going to setup and test for RFI but appear to be good quality (Silvania bulbs anyway). HID is much cheaper now than just a couple of years ago.

Dave
 
DrHolling said:
$500 ?? Ouch. Just bought an HID kit with 2 H3 bulbs (fits DW round lights), ballasts, and wiring for $70 delivered. Going to setup and test for RFI but appear to be good quality (Silvania bulbs anyway). HID is much cheaper now than just a couple of years ago.

Dave
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Must be Chinese copies. If those were Sylvania (Osram) HID bulbs one bulb alone would cost you that much. More Marketing Hype from China I'd say.

Osram does not make an H3 size HID bulb so it would have to be a rebased Osram bulb, not gonna happen for that price.
 
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The biggest problem I have with the video comparison is that it was done with the lights at ground level. The camera has an automatic shutter exposure, so it adjusts to the brightest light in its field of view. Since our LED light has a wider beam pattern, the foreground sets the camera shutter speed and makes the down range look relatively weaker.

If the lights had been mounted on a 30 foot pole (to simulate a plane on short final), the video results would have been a bit different.

The wider beam pattern does mean that distance objects won't be illuminated as strongly, but your eyes are adaptable and can make up some of that difference. On flare the wider beam pattern makes it easier to judge your height above the runway than the narrow beams.

Not trying to make excuses, but seeing these lights with your own eyes is the best way to evaluated them. HIDs are impressive in their own right, and are good lights. They take a bit more work to install compared to the Sunspot which mounts right into a GE4509 bracket.

Dean Wilkinson
AeroLEDs LLC
 
Dean_aeroleds said:
On flare the wider beam pattern makes it easier to judge your height above the runway than the narrow beams.

Not trying to make excuses, but seeing these lights with your own eyes is the best way to evaluated them. HIDs are impressive in their own right, and are good lights. They take a bit more work to install compared to the Sunspot which mounts right into a GE4509 bracket.
Dean Wilkinson
AeroLEDs LLC
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From all my flight training you are supposed to use the horizon not the ground in close (foreground) to judge your flare for landing. Back country landings however, require both foreground (to avoid obstacles rocks stumps etc.) and the horizon for flare timing. In addition, having a lot of light in close (forground) can also ruin your night vision until your eyes readjust again.

Dean, in a cowl (engine) mounted location how do you manage all the heat from the sunspot in a hot engine compartment. Not much of a Delta T to work with there. In fact your heatsink (on the back) could "pull" heat from the engine compartment depending on the ambient air temp in the cowl low pressure side. Do you require a "blast tube" blowing on it using outside air to keep it cool? I understand the 16 LED's are producing less than 2400 "out the front" lumens after lens and reflector efficiencies are taken into account.

Which brand LED do you use, Cree, Lumiled Rebel (Philips), Seoul or other?

There is a lot more to this performance debate about incan, HID, LED than what "meets the eye". (Pun intended)
 
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Dan Blumel said:
Must be Chinese copies. If those were Sylvania (Osram) HID bulbs one bulb alone would cost you that much. More Marketing Hype from China I'd say.

Osram does not make an H3 size HID bulb so it would have to be a rebased Osram bulb, not gonna happen for that price.
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My mistake, they just referred to the Sylvania site for sizing. Not China though, made in Korea. Fired them up this AM. Pulls about 5 amps for the first 12-15 seconds then settled at 3.3. Handheld radio quiet as a church mouse even within inches of the igniter.

Dave
 
Asian Made HID ballasts and bulbs

DrHolling said:
My mistake, they just referred to the Sylvania site for sizing. Not China though, made in Korea. Fired them up this AM. Pulls about 5 amps for the first 12-15 seconds then settled at 3.3. Handheld radio quiet as a church mouse even within inches of the igniter.Dave
Click to expand...

Korea does make moderate quality HID bulbs compared to Osram (Sylvania), Philips and GE (all made in Europe) and Premium quality.

Korea makes the best HID bulbs in Asia except for Koito, Japan, (related to Denso). PIAA, Japan (overpriced) offers relabeled Osram (Sylvania), used to be relabeled Philips.

The Chinese HID bulbs (most of what is being sold in the "kits", cheapest prices) are pure garbage. Arc position QC problems, life, color matching....The MR-16's (50 mm / 2 inch) being offered are also in this group. The only bulbs of good quality and pedigree are of a D2S and D1S configuration (NOT D2C). D2C or D1C is an Asian solution for a D2S/D2R and D1S/D1R. D1C and D2C are NOT quality HID bulbs.

As for ballasts. The only quality Asian ballasts are made by the Japanese. Denso, Matsu****a (Panasonic), Koito, Mitsubishi.... all for OEM (car) makers. Korean made ballasts are no better than Chinese.

Buyer Beware, note: All of these Asian made ballasts (large or small sized) claiming 50 or 55 watt etc., all are basing their wattage rating on input wattage not output wattage to the bulb. The industry standard, OEM ballasts are all rated by output wattage, ie. 35 watts, 50 watt, 75 watts etc.

All of the Asian Ballasts we have seen (many) claiming 50 or 55 watt actually output 40-47 watts depending on mfg and model. All of these ballasts are in the 80-87% efficiency range.

High quality and OEM ballasts are in the 90 to 92% efficiency range. With this in mind the higher quality ballasts generate much less heat (the ballast killer) and are much more reliable using state of the art electronics technology.

You guys who don't want to pay ~ $500 for a high quality single HID system "kit" would be wise to visit your local auto salvage yard and buy QUALITY used HID ballasts and bulbs for similar prices compared to ALL of these cheap Asian (Chinese) kits. The difference in quality is worth the trouble to aquire and knowing you will likely never have problems. Replacement bulbs will never be an issue if using D2S or D1S.
Industry Std. D2S and D1S bulbs will be available for a VERY LONG time.

Dan Blumel
XeVision HID & LED
 
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This thread sure got quiet all of a sudden.

There must be someone out there (besides manufacturers, Dean and I) who has been up close and personal with both LED and HID to offer a " flight & taxi experienced" opinion for comparison of real life performance.

Besided AvWeb and Aviation Consumer that is.
 
I do not have any flight experience at night with the two, but if the landing lights are any relation to the flashlights available (not just the cheap chinese one's either) then I would definitely opt for the halogen (or HID if they were not so spendy) lights.

The LED lights are fine if you just want to look for the keyhole in your doorknob or find the dash lights in an unfamiliar car, but I have noticed when working on my car and walking around at night coming home from hunting or looking for the lost cat that the halogen lights do a much better job.

I wonder if the LED's just need a good reflector and lense assembly to concentrate all that light output?

I think I still like the benefits of the lower current draw and greater output of the HID's for use as landing lights for now. Maybe in the not so distant future the LED's will be able to project better than they do currently.

Just my thoughts and ramblings...
 
OK, I'll chime in here. I've been running a set of home-grown LED landing lights for about a year now. They're based on 12V MR-16 bulbs. Each of the two MR-16's contains 3 x 3W LED's - can't recall the details but memory seems to indicate they're Luxeons, but please don't hold my feet to the fire on that one.

The aircraft is not an RV but rather a 30-year old plans-built tricycle-geared airplane running a C-85 engine and original Delco generator. This being the case there's little to no spare electrical power, so halogens or HID's are out of the question. The two MR-16 bulbs are mounted between the prop spinner and the intake air filter, one above the other, behind a Lexan cover. They're oriented so their beams vary slightly in the vertical plane, that is to say, one points slightly more upward than the other.

As for operation, I leave them on all the time I'm flying. I have confirmation that these lights are visible from a distance in excess of 8 miles in evening light (a fellow EAA chapter member was flying toward me as we approached our home airport from opposite directions, both landing within the last 15 minutes of legal light). With respect to "on runway" operation, they are definitely not capable of producing a bright enough central beam to prevent me from hitting a deer on an unlit runway while accellerating to takeoff speed. But for most other purposes they're adequate. As a taxi light they're just about perfect, especially with one aimed downward to show local terrain deviations and the other aimed more upward to allow reading of signage, etc.

The one area where the LED lights really shine (ok, ok, lame pun...) is in providing guidance in the flare. Because they don't have a "hot" centre beam to both erode night vision and entice one to stare down the centre of the beam, they really do help one use peripheral and far-horizon cues to judge the flare. My aircraft requires very gentle handling in the flare and I've found it much easier to land with runway lights dimmed to minimum intensity and the LED landing lights operating.

In summation, it would be nice if these things made more light, but at a measured current draw of just under 1.5 amps they provide adequate lighting without placing undue stress on an electrical system that's already operating at capacity. My net investment was about CAD$80. If I lived in a perfect world I'd likely have a HID landing light and a pair of wig-wagging wingtip LED taxi lights. The HID would be used for landing/takeoff only, while the LED's would stay on all the time and be set to wig-wag any time I'm not taxiing.
 
The main problem I have found with the LED MR 16 replacements is that they are extremely noisy. The DC to DC inverters are not filtered enough.
 
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