Bob Axsom

Well Known Member
Have you had both on your airplanes and if so how did they compare in speed? I made subfairings for my RV-6A (nose gear old style, mains new). The nosegear subfairing made a large difference in speed but the mains improvement was not measurable. I have been thinking of making new fairings that will be very similar to the stock and subfairings together. If there is some good information out there I would like to know it before I start making molds.

Bob Axsom
 
Have you had both on your airplanes and if so how did they compare in speed? I made subfairings for my RV-6A (nose gear old style, mains new). The nosegear subfairing made a large difference in speed but the mains improvement was not measurable. I have been thinking of making new fairings that will be very similar to the stock and subfairings together. If there is some good information out there I would like to know it before I start making molds.

Bob Axsom

Bob,

Have you looked at the Sam James wheel fairings as an alternative? I've heard various claims that they're faster than the 2-piece Van's fairings (due to being more compact), but no substantiation. I also note that Bruce Hammer has the new-style Van's fairings installed on his very fast Glasair.
 
Hi Bob,

I'd have to go back into the archives to get true numbers, but we upgraded Louise's RV-6 (kit #4) to all-new gear fairings a couple of years ago and got about 5 knots or so if I remember correctly. That was new pants, gear leg covers, and intersection fairings on a taildragger.

Paul
 
Hi Bob,

I'd have to go back into the archives to get true numbers, but we upgraded Louise's RV-6 (kit #4) to all-new gear fairings a couple of years ago and got about 5 knots or so if I remember correctly. That was new pants, gear leg covers, and intersection fairings on a taildragger.

Paul

What style did you upgrade from? I believe there has been three wheel pant styles for the -6, the original one piece, the original two piece and now the two piece pressure recovery. I have the old style two piece and am wondering if it is worth it to upgrade to the new pressure recovery for my -6A.

Thanks,

Scott
 
What style did you upgrade from? I believe there has been three wheel pant styles for the -6, the original one piece, the original two piece and now the two piece pressure recovery. I have the old style two piece and am wondering if it is worth it to upgrade to the new pressure recovery for my -6A.

Thanks,

Scott

Original one-piece (hence, kit #4....) ;)
 
I'd have to go back into the archives to get true numbers, but we upgraded Louise's RV-6 (kit #4) to all-new gear fairings a couple of years ago and got about 5 knots or so if I remember correctly. That was new pants, gear leg covers, and intersection fairings on a taildragger.

Okay, I'm convinced. Now I want to upgrade. :)
 
Dick Martin

Dick Martin has a fast RV-8.
I took this pull from the RV builders hotline:

"Want 3-5 more knots? Martin recommends against the Van's wheel pants design. go with the ones designed by the NASA guys, he says."

Who are these NASA guys??? How do we get to see these pants?
 
Dick Martin has a fast RV-8.
I took this pull from the RV builders hotline:

"Want 3-5 more knots? Martin recommends against the Van's wheel pants design. go with the ones designed by the NASA guys, he says."

Who are these NASA guys??? How do we get to see these pants?

What is the vintage of the above quote? If it is old enough, he might have been talking about the old-style Van's pants....

And no, I don't know who "those NASA guys" might be....:rolleyes:
 
Bob,

Have you looked at the Sam James wheel fairings as an alternative? I've heard various claims that they're faster than the 2-piece Van's fairings (due to being more compact), but no substantiation. I also note that Bruce Hammer has the new-style Van's fairings installed on his very fast Glasair.

Alan, any idea if the claims for the SJ's were over the old-style or new PR fairings? I ask, because I have the Sam James pants, and have considered both the new Van's PR pants and the Team Rocket PR pants. In talking with other racers, most feel I won't gain much (if anything) from a switch. However, some have commented on the flat sides of my SJ pants as a negative.

I may gain more by beefing up the glass around the screw holes and using countersunk screws (versus my button-heads), and cleaning up the intersection fairings...but I'm always looking for the next .5 knot! ;)

Thoughts?

And the NASA mystery intrigues me as well...who are those guys?! :)

Cheers,
Bob
 
Vans new style fairings

Bob - Last year at Oshkosh Van told me to expect 4 - 6 mph speed increase with the new pressure recovery wheel fairings, so I ordered a set. I did some speed test with my old style fairings on my RV-4 before making the change. After the change to the new style, I got a 3.1 mph increase in speed at 8,000 ft pressure alt. and WOT. Not as much as Van, but I'm OK with it.
 
Alan, any idea if the claims for the SJ's were over the old-style or new PR fairings?

Bob,

The claims I heard (several years ago now) where that the SJ were faster than the Van's two-piece that are standard on the RV-8. I think it was Dick Martin who told me this, at Oshkosh (as he's also said on this forum). Not sure how he did his testing.

Cleaning up the intersection fairings certainly sounds like a good idea. I've also tried using baffle material to tighten up the gap between wheel pant and tire, but have not been able to see a measurable difference.
 
Well I Guess I'll just use the shape I have

Thanks for the feedback. I will use what I have as a start point - the Pressure recovery Mains and flat side nose both combined with the subfairings. This will get rid of the lap joints and reduce the part count from 4 fairing elements at each wheel to 2. Making molds takes a long time and that will not start until after the last race this season at Taylor Texas in late November. So the results will not be known until sometime next year.

Bob Axsom
 
49clipper

Bob,
I cannot teel any difference at all. No speed increase for me. Although, I did go to the larger (taller) 5" tires, and tI purposedly made them stick out of the pant about an inch or so more (for ground clearance on grass), so that might have negated any speed increase.
Jim
RV-6
 
Alan, Bob, Jim:

Here are a couple pics of my fairings. I don't have a good head-on shot to show the flat sides, but you can see they have a bit of a PR shape.

pants1.jpg


pants2.jpg


pants3k.jpg


The bud that sold the airplane to me said they are PR pants, and I've compared them to the Rocket PR pants and the RV8 PR pants (as I mentioned before). The RV-8 pants are more bulbous (the secret of being PR, from what I understand), and the Rocket fairings are closer to mine, but more rounded (between the roundness of the RV-8 pants and mine. I've talked to Mark (F1Boss) about them, and others with Rocket Fairings, but the consensus is that me swapping may gain little. But a little goes a long way in the racing biz.

I like the racy look of Mark's fairings the best, but if cleaning mine up would give me the same improvement, I can put those $$ to other mods. But if either the Rocket or -8 PR pants offer a significant boost, I'm game to try. Seems to be good results of PR pants over the old style, but are there any test results out there betweem SJ, Rocket and -8 PR pants?

As you can see from the pics, my wheel fairings are low and tight (I may rotate them forward a bit to get a little better rear section clearance, but leave them low). Then do that change I mentioned on the #10 button heads for countersinks (glass work required), and then tackle the intersection fairings, which are well made but have big gaps (that I tape with 3M 417 tape, but it gets shredded at the back of the upper intersection fairings).

FWIW, one of the bent whip antennas is gone, and both the TED antennas are gone (one replaced by a blade...thanks for the advice Larry Vetterman!) and the other (Monroy) is on the glareshield (thanks Pete Howell!) The fuel drains have the plastic fairings on them now too. Haven't raced at Sea Level yet, but my speed in the Pagosa 100 a few weeks ago (7000' to 8500') was 8 knots (ooops MPH) faster than last year! Some perhaps was due to the mods (these and others), and some (more likely) due to slightly different techniques in the race (no, not cheating :p). Looking forward to running at Taylor in November to see how this and last year compare!

Then its into the winter mode, and an RV-8 rudder an V-Stab (for the counterbalance), and maybe some work on the angle of the exhaust pipes and the exit area. Guess its time to really learn glass work! :eek:

Long post (sorry), but any thoughts on the fairings are appreciated (in keeping with the OPs topic!)

Cheers,
Bob
 
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As you can see from the pics, my wheel fairings are low and tight (I may rotate them forward a bit to get a little better rear section clearance, but leave them low). Then do that change I mentioned on the #10 button heads for countersinks (glass work required), and then tackle the intersection fairings, which are well made but have big gaps (that I tape with 3M 417 tape, but it gets shredded at the back of the upper intersection fairings).

Bob - the fairings look pretty good to me; not sure I'd mess with trying to fit new ones. You might not need much glass work to change to countersunk screws (could use Tinnerman washers if the material isn't very thick)?
 
It's interesting that Bob mentioned greater improvement from cleaning up the nose fairing. The nose gear is a big source of drag because it is immersed in the prop wash. Therefore, anyone with limited time or money might want to first focus their attention there.
 
Bob Mills Wheel Fairings

Bob M, I looked at your wheel fairings and it appears to me that you can improve what you have a lot. The amount of tire showing is a lot! You can bring the fairings down to 1 inch or less from the ground and contour the lower surface aft of the tire upward and then back to reduce the scoop effect. As far as the fairing assembly screws are concerned I agree with Alan - just drill out the outer surface holes to 3/8" and use flat head screws and dimple washers to replace the round head screws.

Some things I learned as I worked on my subfairings may be of interest to you in you post racing season work in this area.

- If you bring the edges of the fairing opening around the tire down low the interface is changed in an interesting way. The tire changes shape when weight is placed on them. The change in shape increases the gap between the tire and fairing opening if the opening is below the swell point of the tire. I jacked my plane up and down and measured the gap all around to verify this. I thought I reported the numbers in this forum when I was developing my current subfairings. The effect is similar to the old fixed gear with clam shell wheel covers idea without the mechanical baggage.

- The rotating tire in the fairing that extends down to around 3/4" or 1" above the ground only has a serious interference problem at the rear of the opening and that can be eliminated if the shape of the fairing in this area places the surface tangent to the tire diameter instead of "edge on" into it.

- If the front of the fairing lower surface is brought down to the tire 3/4" or 1" above the ground it is an inclined plane relative to the ground and even in the event of a bad landing it will deflect the airplane away from the point of hard impact rather than digging in. It will scrape the paint if you do it on pavement but no one will see it until you remove the fairing. Been there, done that.

Bob Axsom
 
- If you bring the edges of the fairing opening around the tire down low the interface is changed in an interesting way. The tire changes shape when weight is placed on them. The change in shape increases the gap between the tire and fairing opening if the opening is below the swell point of the tire. I jacked my plane up and down and measured the gap all around to verify this. I thought I reported the numbers in this forum when I was developing my current subfairings. The effect is similar to the old fixed gear with clam shell wheel covers idea without the mechanical baggage.

Bob Axsom

Bob - this is a really interesting observation. What kind of tire are you using? I would guess that this might make a difference in how it deflects when loaded.

Looking more closely at the photos I'd agree that Bob's fairings are mounted a bit high (although the trim around the tire looks pretty tight).
 
Two thoughts

My tires are McCreary Air Tracks I believe. The amount of deformation will vary with tire design I'm sure but the distribution of the distort away from the point of contact with the ground will have the same characteristics.

When I said to bring down the edge of the fairing closser to the ground that may have given the wrong impression. I ment build up a mold with clay on the bottom of the fairing to the tire and lay up fiberglass on it which will change the shape and volume of the fairing. Bob Mills observed that he has the fairings rotated back too far and I agree with that but his vertical area seems to be pretty full of tire. That could be wrong and if so, when he changes the mounting that should be addressed as well before the new fiberglass effort.

Bob Axsom
 
<snip...You can bring the fairings down to 1 inch or less from the ground and contour the lower surface aft of the tire upward and then back to reduce the scoop effect. As far as the fairing assembly screws are concerned I agree with Alan - just drill out the outer surface holes to 3/8" and use flat head screws and dimple washers to replace the round head screws.

Some things I learned as I worked on my subfairings may be of interest to you in you post racing season work in this area.

- If you bring the edges of the fairing opening around the tire down low the interface is changed in an interesting way. The tire changes shape when weight is placed on them. The change in shape increases the gap between the tire and fairing opening if the opening is below the swell point of the tire. I jacked my plane up and down and measured the gap all around to verify this. I thought I reported the numbers in this forum when I was developing my current subfairings. The effect is similar to the old fixed gear with clam shell wheel covers idea without the mechanical baggage.

- The rotating tire in the fairing that extends down to around 3/4" or 1" above the ground only has a serious interference problem at the rear of the opening and that can be eliminated if the shape of the fairing in this area places the surface tangent to the tire diameter instead of "edge on" into it.

- If the front of the fairing lower surface is brought down to the tire 3/4" or 1" above the ground it is an inclined plane relative to the ground and even in the event of a bad landing it will deflect the airplane away from the point of hard impact rather than digging in. It will scrape the paint if you do it on pavement but no one will see it until you remove the fairing. Been there, done that.

Bob Axsom

Bob - this is a really interesting observation. What kind of tire are you using? I would guess that this might make a difference in how it deflects when loaded.

Looking more closely at the photos I'd agree that Bob's fairings are mounted a bit high (although the trim around the tire looks pretty tight).

My tires are McCreary Air Tracks I believe. The amount of deformation will vary with tire design I'm sure but the distribution of the distort away from the point of contact with the ground will have the same characteristics.

When I said to bring down the edge of the fairing closser to the ground that may have given the wrong impression. I ment build up a mold with clay on the bottom of the fairing to the tire and lay up fiberglass on it which will change the shape and volume of the fairing. Bob Mills observed that he has the fairings rotated back too far and I agree with that but his vertical area seems to be pretty full of tire. That could be wrong and if so, when he changes the mounting that should be addressed as well before the new fiberglass effort.

Bob Axsom

Thanks guys...I'm feeling pretty special...post a couple pics and get some awesome professional consultation!! And I almost understand it! :D

I highlighted a couple areas, and let me see if I do get the gist.

I, of course, get the tinnerman/countersink recommendation (makes good sense, and I have lotsa those!!) Add 471 tape, and off we go! I'll either do that, or fill the holes, beef them up and go with countersink screws only. The former will be quicker, but my glass maestro is a craftsman, and may not "allow" me to opt for the quicker solution, if you know what I mean!

On height (the blue words), I think I understand that to mean to lower the bottom of the fairing to below the fattest bulge of the tire as it sits on the ground. In my pics, I'm about an inch above that, where the tire nears the wheel outer circumference, and thus gets narrow. Under Bob's guidance, that edge would drop to below the bulge, and closer to where the tread contacts the ground. I might be able to accomplish a little of that by raising the hole the axle nut goes through (lowering the entire fairing if the wheel has room on top...I think I have a little to work with), and the rest would have to be with a build up of glass. Since my fairing sides are somewhat flat in that area, it may take some careful glass work to add some curve to that area (to get it around the tire bulge).

Any lowering would have to be combined with rotating the fairing forward, to keep the trailing edge off the ground. Bob, I'm trying to visualize what you meant by the red words (I liked picture books as a kid! :rolleyes:). Can you clarify the recommendations that include "contour up and back to reduce scoop effect" and the "tangent versus edge on"? HAving trouble picturing what you mean. And what do you mean by scoop effect...the lower lip acting as an air scoop and thus causing drag?

Finally, the forward section discussion (in magenta). I think you mean that as long as there is some upward tilt of the forward part of the pant, even if its low, the pant will deflect up, and that incline will make for a glancing blow, and some scrapes...is that right? Then again, why would I worry about a bad landing! :p (Oh yeah, I'm a Navy guy...flare to land, squat to...:eek:)

OK, so you guys are gonna have to start charging me for this, and the OP is gonna kill me for thread drift! Perhaps we can talk about this in Taylor, and maybe even ask Mark if he can bring a pair of Rocket PR pants, and then compare SJ, -8 PR, and Rocket PR pants in person (by looks). I'd love to run a side-by-side test of all three and add real value to this thread...but my bride says I'd need a little sponsorship to do that...especially when I start negotiating for a BA prop!

(Side note, I'd like to run a side-by-side-by-side test of my D-twist vs. the BA vs. Paul's Ellipse prop...but the CFO says I need to get a lot of sponsorship to do that...and the crankshaft work to swap from CS to FP and back intimidates my banker too!...but I digress...again!)

Ah, those Sunday musings! Thanks again for the discussion!

Cheers,
Bob
 
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Bob;
Just a thought; Someone mentioned the drag of the nose gear, which got me thinking about spam can speed mods. One advertises a nose gear fairing and ridge down the center bottom of the cowl. This is supposed to straighten the swirling flow of air off the prop to increase effective thrust?
Have you given a thought to a non symetrical airfoil on the nose strut fairing?
 
I think you have it

IMG_4361.jpg


This one I took during the latest rear closure mod may help If you do a search on my subfairing work I thik there are enough photos there to show the shape etc. that I was talking about.

Here is a later photo:

IMG_4363.jpg


The change to the flat sided nose gear fairing is shown. There was a tremendous increase in speed from this mod in racing terms (anything over a knot) so now I'm thinking, as stated in the original post, that I should incorporate the composite shape into a new two piece fairing. I can stay with the current basic shape and eliminate all of the extra seams and fasteners and be fairly sure of at least as good performance as I have now or I can play with the rounded shape at some risk of increasing the equivalent flat plate area and slowing the plane down a fraction (Mike Thompson would love that). I could do both but right now that isn't going to happen. I'll probably make the semi-flatside mold then some time later contour the sides using some half baked theory to determine the shape and lay up another fairing.

Good luck with the prop. I went from the old style to the blended airfoil and I did comparison flight tests and I did get a 3 knot difference as Van's had previously reported in the RVator but the price is staggering. Even with the special onetime upgrade OEM cost agreement that Van's has with Hartzell it still cost over $6,000 for my O-360. The Factory price is ~$11,000. I do not believe for a minute that this is the best racing prop but the cost and complexity of pursuing excellence in this area is daunting. I looked at Paul's 3 bladed prop on an O-320 powered RV-6 at a race in Wichita a couple of years ago and it did not appeal to me. The speed was much less than my RV-6A with the O-360 which doesn't mean much by itself but when I get into the prop buying process the prop has to be demonstrated to be much faster than what I already have.

Bob Axsom
 
Bob A response

Bob;
Just a thought; Someone mentioned the drag of the nose gear, which got me thinking about spam can speed mods. One advertises a nose gear fairing and ridge down the center bottom of the cowl. This is supposed to straighten the swirling flow of air off the prop to increase effective thrust?
Have you given a thought to a non symetrical airfoil on the nose strut fairing?

I had not thought of that - will keep it in mind.

Bob Axsom
 
Bob;
Just a thought; Someone mentioned the drag of the nose gear, which got me thinking about spam can speed mods. One advertises a nose gear fairing and ridge down the center bottom of the cowl. This is supposed to straighten the swirling flow of air off the prop to increase effective thrust?
Have you given a thought to a non symetrical airfoil on the nose strut fairing?

Yes, in theory, the strut fairing should be mounted with a small angle of incidence to align it with the relative airflow behind the prop. Perhaps your prop manufacturer has some data that would be helpful in selecting the angle of incidence? As an experiment it might be possible to mount a section of nose strut fairing in such a way that it is free to rotate about the strut and align itself with the relative airflow. After measuring the angle of incidence at the cruise condition, it could be permanently anchored.

In any event, I'm guessing that the optimal angle is very small. Also, the generous LE radius on the fairing should make it fairly insensitive to angle of attack. Therefore, the available drag reduction is probably not very substantial.