danielhv

danielhv

Well Known Member
Got the practice kit in... just trying to get used to riveting... I tried using the 3x rivet gun... but im not sure when to stop... Then I did majority with the pneumatic squeezer. Pic 1, #1, #2, and #3 were all driven with the rivet gun. #4 was with the pneumatic squeezer. Which ones look ok and which ones dont? Im assuming that the #2 in the first picture was driven for too long this resulting in the little cracks?? Also, #4 in the 1st pic was driven with the pneumatic squeezer. All rivets driven with the squeezer seem to have that dot in the middle of the head.

1.jpg


2.jpg


3.jpg


4.jpg
 
Last edited:
Actually all the rivets you will be using start with those little dots. You just pounded them out with the rivet gun.

As far as the riveting, you have gone way too far with the gun. Get yourself a rivet gauge and use it until you get a feel for how far to drive teh rivet.

One thing that I found that works well is to run your line pressure all the way up and use the regulator at teh gun to control the amount of air flow. Start with it turned way down then slowly go up until it take a second or two to drive the rivet.

The dimple on the squeezed rivet looks like you need to drive the dimple a little more. You should have a nice crisp dimple and the skin around the dimple should be flat.

Best thing to do is get someone with some experience to help you out. You can learn most of the skills in a few hours.

Good luck and have fun

Cam
 
Best advice is like he said above. Get some help and you will be amazed at how easy it is once someone shows you the small details of how to do it.

With 3/32 rivets 4 to 5 taps is all it should take with a 3X gun. 3 to 4 once you get the hang of it and can wind up the gun a little.

If your using the DRDT2 make sure you adjust it till it springs a little when dimpling to ensure you get a good dimple. Same if your dimpling with a squeezer.
 
Last edited:
Get gauges

Like Cam said, get those gauges, and learn how to properly use them, they are a don't-fit gauge, not a fit gauge. Meaning a perfectly driven rivet will not fit through the hole in the gauge and will not slide under the slot (Aim for perfect with the squeezer and really close on the gun. It'll be impossible to drive all perfectly with the gun. Slightly overdriven is generally better than underdriven. "Slightly" is the key word in that last sentence.) You should only require the 3/32 and 1/8 gauges. The rivet should set with just a few taps of the gun, say 10 or so. If you're holding the gun up and banging away for say 50-100 hits, it will work-harden the rivet, and you'll get the cracks like the picture.

I strongly recommend you get the sheet metal tools Orndorff video. I think Vans carries them, if not you can go straight to the Geobeck website and order there, or post a WTB in the classifieds sections or maybe even at your local EAA chapter. That video should be required viewing before doing anything. (My personal opinion here, I have no affiliation whatsoever with George or GeoBeck other than being a satisfied customer.)

Don't worry, this will all be second nature in no time at all. You will find your eyeballs are quite accurate rivet gauges after just a few rivets. You'll also get a second nature feel of the rivet gun and bucking bars.

Congratulations on taking that first step, and never be afraid to post a question here!

Good luck!
 
Be gentle with the gun...

What pressure are you using for the rivet gun? I used a pretty low pressure - like 30 psi on my 3X gun for the small rivets, (about 50 psi for 1/8" rivets) and even then I was gentle on the trigger. A couple of short burst is all you need. The rivet gun will obliterate the dimple because the head is being pounded. You want the shop head to look just like the one the squeezer produces :rolleyes: When in doubt, hit it light, you can always go back with another very short burst if needed, but it's harder to undo :eek:
Also, don't fret if every rivet isn't perfect. When one is really messed up, drill and replace, but be careful because many have drilled out reasonably decent rivets and ended up with a mess (I've been told - I never did it of course :rolleyes:) For instance, if the one rivet in your pictures with the over driven shop head was the only one in the row that was 'bad', I'd just leave it. If you had a whole row of those, I'd replace at least every other one, and if those went well maybe do more replacements.
The cracking on the rivet head is an indication of over driving.
After you've done a few hundred, you'll wonder why you ever had a problem :cool: After 15 thousand or so (?) you'll be all done!
 
Beware of rivets without dimples (before setting). The dimple means the rivet is an "AD" rivet made from "hard" 2117 aluminum alloy with a minimum tensile strength of 38,000 PSI. "A" rivets don't have a dimple and are made from "soft" pure aluminum with a tensile stength of 16,000 PSI. I once had a vendor send me a bag of "A" rivets, even though I ordered "AD" rivets. Fortunately, I caught the error and didn't use the "A" rivets.
 
All of those rivets are overdriven. I see in the pic you have a pair of calipers...the width of the shop head should be 1.3 to 1.5 the diameter of the rivet. The -3 rivets are 3/32", or .0937" Thus the minimum diameter is: 1.3 x .0937= .121" and the max is 1.5 x .0937= .140" As mentioned, a 3x gun hits pretty hard, even at a low 30 PSI or so it should only take a quick half second "BRRAAAP" to set it. Of course it all depends on how smoothly you lead in and out with your trigger fingers as well. If your rivet started out the correct length (1.5 its diameter) the height should be fine when you achieve the 1.3-1.5 diameter. Alot of vans rivet callouts tend to be on the short side so in those cases I would shoot for the 1.3 diameter and measure to ensure the heigth is within spec. Sometime you need to use a longer rivet, sometimes this means cutting a longer rivet down to make the proper, custom length you need. Also, wrap your bucking bar in several turns of duct tape and leave just the bucking face exposed. Those time you do accidentaly hold it up the sheet metal, it wont scratch and gouge the heck out of it as showen in one of your pictures. The biggest key for me to get good rivets with a bucking bar and gun is to have the parts securly clamped so it is ridged and I can apply pressure with the bucking bar and gun without it moving on me.

Mike
 
pointers

A couple simple things. The smallest rivets, drive with the mushroom head on end on the x3 gun at 30-40psi. When giving small blurps, put your finger in a hook on the surface around the mushroom head. Just so if you get carried away, the run wont slide up the skin and leave big dents.
The larger rivets drive with the mushroom head at 40-50psi
Anything you can squeeze with a pneumatic squeezer do, but set that air at 100psi.

DONT FORGET TO READJUST AIR for different driving needs. Forget once to drop from 100 to 30-40 for the x3 gun...ugly problems.

Wrap your bucking bars in tape except one flat surface so you get less scratches. You will love rivetting shortly....its not hard, but there is a short learning curve.
 
Be mindful of the edge distance. Ref the rivets in the corner in photos 3 and 4. The rivet centerline should be no closer than 2 times its diameter to the edge of the material.

Steve
 
Yea I noticed the scuffing from the bucking bar and thought about wrapping it in tape, but im using a tungsten bucking bar and thought about how expensive it is, and how nice it looks so I decided not to. lol... So it IS ok to wrap it in duct tape?

I also ordered another practice kit. Now that Ive got the anxiousness out of my system I'll spend a little more time on the new one (wing section kit) and make sure its perfect. Its nice to see that they give you extra rivets, so I'll practice drilling some out on the toolbox.
 
Evil, evil, duct tape

The thing I don't like about duct tape, is that it gets all gummy if it's on something you handle regularly. And it's a pain in the rear to clean.

I've been meaning to put this in the tips and tricks section, so I'll take some photos and post there also.

What I do is take a bicycle tire innertube, and cut it into rings about an inch or so wide. Then slip them over your bucking bars, voila. A nice rubbery surface to grip, and it won't mar the aluminum. For tricky rivets, you can also slip it up over a corner for added protection.
 
Well, I disagree with Cam, so you can see there are different ways to do things. The gun mounted "regulator" is not a regulator, even though that is what they are called. It is only a flow restrictor. Look thru it when it is off your line and you can see as you turn it, it just reduces the opening size. On your first hit, you get full regulated pressure, so if your real regulator is set at 90 psi, your first hit will be at 90, which is way too high in my book. As you continue to hit the rivet pressure bleeds down, so you hit it hard with the first blow and more gently the longer you have the trigger down. So if it were me, I would toss the gun mounted phony regulator. OTH, some folks do it just as Cam says.

Similar to Dennis and some others, I run my regulator at 30 for 3/32's and 40 for 1/8 inchers. Works for me and my gun.

As for shooting technique, I find I am inconsistent in how long I hold the trigger down. I can't count hits and each rivet takes less than one second, so counting off the time doesn't work for me. So I pull and release the trigger quickly 3 times and they are usually alright, sometimes needing another quick burst.

I like the bicycle inner tube idea and it lets you remove it easily if you want to use a different surface. I was going to use Plasti-dip, but now I think I will look for an inner tube.
 
Interesting... Has anyone tried using an actual regulator on the rivet gun? You know, like the ones they use on paint guns?

The alternative would be to moung a regulator onto the work table as my main reg is on the side of the compressor in the corner of the shop. Kinda inconvienent to get up and change psi everytime I switch from the rivet gun to the squeezer to the drill.
 
RScott said:
Well, I disagree with Cam, so you can see there are different ways to do things. The gun mounted "regulator" is not a regulator, even though that is what they are called. It is only a flow restrictor. Look thru it when it is off your line and you can see as you turn it, it just reduces the opening size. On your first hit, you get full regulated pressure, so if your real regulator is set at 90 psi, your first hit will be at 90, which is way too high in my book. As you continue to hit the rivet pressure bleeds down, so you hit it hard with the first blow and more gently the longer you have the trigger down. So if it were me, I would toss the gun mounted phony regulator. OTH, some folks do it just as Cam says.
Click to expand...

Yes I do know that it's just a restricter, but most people refer to it as a regulator so that's what I call it

Your description of how a restricter works isn't correct though. The flow through the restricter is much less than that of the gun, so the restricter is what is regulating the flow throught the gun. There is very little air volume between the restricter and the gun so you don't get a line pressure hit on the first strike of the rivet gun. So the restricter allows for very small changes in flow without having the line pressure bleed down much.

The whole problem with setting the regulator at the tank is you have to flow a low pressure air through a long line before it gets to the gun. This causes the air sourse to vary much more than with the restricter method.

As far as producing well set rivets, pick any method and run with it. You can use a 16oz hammer and a steel bar to set rivets with enough practice.
 
After some thought, Cam is may right to some extent. The volume of air used in the cylinder of the gun on the first hit may be large enough to allow the flow restrictor to reduce reduce the air pressure inside, as the flow can't keep up. But, on mine at least, there is very little precision in the adjustment. Cam, have you tried it with the restrictor full open, but your regulator set at 30 or 40? I think you'll get more consistency.

My regulator is not at the tank. I have about 24 feet of 3/4 inch copper line, before my water separator, then the regulator where my hose attaches. The line pressure does keep up when riveting, but not when using high cfm tools. But on a high cfm tool, I don't want another part in the system cutting into the air flow anyway.
 
danielhv said:
The alternative would be to moung a regulator onto the work table as my main reg is on the side of the compressor in the corner of the shop. Kinda inconvienent to get up and change psi everytime I switch from the rivet gun to the squeezer to the drill.
Click to expand...

It's not that much of an inconvenience. Think about it - you do all of your drilling in one shot (90 psi), then dimpling (90 psi for pneumatic squeezer), then, if needed, rivet gun (30-60 psi, depending on what yer driving). The other option is to put in a "T" connector between your air supply and the regulator. Put a quick disconnect on the other end of the "T" and the other end of the regulator. Switching from regulated to non-regulated is as simple as switching hoses between quick disconnects on either side of a regulator.

I have been dealing with changing the pressure between tools from the getgo, and I haven't considered it inconvenient in the least. I would much rather fiddle with pressure all day then debur, prime, etc..
 
RScott said:
After some thought, Cam is may right to some extent. The volume of air used in the cylinder of the gun on the first hit may be large enough to allow the flow restrictor to reduce reduce the air pressure inside, as the flow can't keep up. But, on mine at least, there is very little precision in the adjustment. Cam, have you tried it with the restrictor full open, but your regulator set at 30 or 40? I think you'll get more consistency.

My regulator is not at the tank. I have about 24 feet of 3/4 inch copper line, before my water separator, then the regulator where my hose attaches. The line pressure does keep up when riveting, but not when using high cfm tools. But on a high cfm tool, I don't want another part in the system cutting into the air flow anyway.
Click to expand...


Obviously whatever works for you is right, but one more nice thing about using the restricter is that I never have to adjust a regulator. I can switch between river gun, squeezer, drill, cleco gun, die grinder, and air gun and never adjust the regulator. In 5 years I've never had to adjust my regulator. Not having to worry about what the compressor is set at sure is nice. Ive heard a few people talk about beating up the side of their plane because they forgot to turn down their regulator. The difference between a -3 and a -4 rivet is two or three clicks on my gun. If I start to drive a -3 rivet with a -4 setting it won't smash up my plane. Also I make a habit of always turning the gun down the low setting when I'm done.

I did try using the air supply regulator to control the rivet gun, it works okay, but you have to keep resetting the regulator and I found the control wasn't as fine as with the restricter.

In the end just pick a method and run with it.
 
I always test the gun against a piece of scrap 2x4 or similar to check the "feel" of the setting before going near the plane or other work piece with it.

Also with my Craftsman oil-less compresor and 3X gun I generally use 35 psi with some restriction for -3s and 45-50 psi with a wide open restrictor for -4s.

You need more pressure with longer -4 rivets passing through more rigid structure such as the fuselage longeron/engine bracket joint area and the fuel tank nose angle bracket. I think that the structure absorbs more of the "hit" in these areas and passes less though the rivet to the bucking bar. I have a sneaky suspicion that with the tank the proseal also cushions some of the "hit" too. I'd be interested to hear other's comments on these observations

Jim Sharkey
 
You must log in or register to reply here.