[jbDC9]

With the hobbs meter at a whopping 33.3 hours, my alternator crapped out last evening. It's a Van's ND 60 amp reman unit that came with the FWF kit... has anyone else had one fail this soon or did I set a new low time failure record??

There is a bit of good news to go with it though; I pulled it this morning and took it to a local alternator/starter shop and had them bench check it. Yep, it's dead; it seems the brushes were outta whack, not making good contact. The shop visit was a pleasant surprise; they jumped right on it, installed a new brush block assembly for 10 bucks and I was out the door in maybe 20 minutes. I haven't reinstalled it yet, but it should be fine, checked good on the bench after reassembly.

I thought the shop manager's reaction to the alternator itself was kinda funny... I forget his exact words, but he gave it a funny look and said basically "what kind of cheap Chinese knockoff junk is this?" Nice! Does Van's still sell the rebuilt 60 amp I/R alternators or are they new build units?

 

[Radomir]

John, the quickest I know of is approx 30 seconds and it went poof... It sucks that it dies immediately after you cowl up the plane...

those rebuilts weren't all that reliable.. at least the 3 I know of.

 

[Bryan Wood]

You beat me

Mine died on the final flight of phase one with 39 hours and 45ish minutes on it. FWIW Van's has the regulators and they are easy to install.

Best,

 

[N941WR]

The 3 Radomir mentioned were caused by the brushes and bearings being out of alignment causing the thing to fritz. A good local rebuild seems to solved the problem on all three.

 

[Bryan Wood]

Bill,

My response was poorly worded. If you happen to have a regulator failure on one of these alternators Van's has them in stock.

Happy New Year,

 

[N941WR]

Brian,

The three that died were all on the same RV-7A and Radomir wasn't exaggerating on how quickly one of them died. It didn't even make it to the run up.

The problems with all of them were caused by the things I mentioned earlier. Replacing the regulator wouldn't have helped. That's all I was trying to point out.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed about mine.

 

[jbDC9]

30 seconds? Ouch! Man, I wasn't even close to holding the record there.

I read in a few other posts that the brushes can be troublesome, so I hope that today's new brush block assy takes care of that. I'm glad to see that Vans has regulators in stock as well, just in case... good thing too, since the local shop here didn't have any that would fit it and they couldn't source any thru their computer system.

 

[flydjd]

Warranty ?

Hi all,

Sorry but I am probably missing something here due to ignorance but why are Van's selling something at approx $200 that is not checked out before shipping and/or isn't fit for its task ?

If I had bought this and paid shipping to Europe and then it needed fixing before use, or after only a few hours, I would not be a happy bunny ! ( I don't need extra work on top of my self induced c*** ups !!!! )

Does anyone else have other source suggestions...for example I will probably go with an Aerosport engine and accessories

Sorry to be posting criticism

 

[Bill Dicus]

Alterntor failures

I thought these were internally regulated. Are they? If so, can the internal regulator be replaced (and purchased separately from Van's)? Mine is mounted but hasn't been run. Bill D

 

[William Slaughter]

Other alternator choices

David,
I would think the two leading choices to be the Plane Power internally regulated alternator (I'm currently leaning in that direction), or the expensive but extremely reliable B&C externally regulated. Van's now offers the Plane Power unit, but you check out the details at www.plane-power.com.

 

[f1rocket]

I have over 600 hours of flight time and I have never had an alternator failure. Why? Because I've always had a B&C spinning underneath the cowl. They are worth the money just so I don't have to mess with the darn thing.

 

[videobobk]

Non-failure

I had what I thought was a failure on initial engine start. As it turns out, it was a failure of the builder, not the alternator. It went to high output, which I caught, thanks to the AF-2500. I shut it off with the switch and decided to ignore it for a while, as there were plenty of other things to check out. I THOUGHT it was a standard Van's alt, as the original owner said he bought it from Van's. My fwf came from a 6A that was damaged in hurricane Charlie. I figured the regualtor was shot, but when I checked, it was actually an externally regulated B & C!! All it took was a little re-wiring to add a regulator and I ended up with what I hear to be a far better alt. It seems Van's sold B & C's for a short time in the mid 90's. I don't usually come out ahead like that.

Bob Kelly

 

[osxuser]

I'm a little lost on this whole discussion. The Plane Power alternator is a NipponDenso... the Suzuki one I used (and apparently the one Van's uses) is also a NipponDenso, and the B&C is a NipponDenso. All variations of the same basic alternator. I think Van's issue might be the rebuild quality of theirs... we got a genuine Suzuki rebuilt one, so i'll see how long it lasts.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Good Chinese and Bad Chinese

Fact is there are NO new ND alternators, at least the models we use. They are all rebuilt of knock offs.

There are two kind of knock offs, Mainland Chinese and Taiwanese. The Taiwanese units are the good ones and come from specific suppliers. The Main Land units are of lower quality. I looked into importing alternators for the experimental market to compete with the ridiculously priced B&C units and Van's rebuilds and super cheap knock offs. I decided against doing it for two reasons.

The two GOOD reasons are Plane Power came along and did it better than I could do at a reasonable price. Yes they use the better knock off parts. Second, Van has I hope, after calling them a few times over the last few years about their rebuilds, has got better alternators (with the price increase).

Yes some of the units Van sold where bad, but it was the supplier. Quality control poor to put it politely.

Real ND alternators from Japan are of very high quality. Back in the day you could go to the Junk yard and pull one off, clean it and use it. Now all units are worn, rebuilt (w/ questionable aftermarket parts) or are all new clones. I guess because the original units went out of production well over 10 years, there is no patent? People can freely copy them. Not sure ND makes parts for them anymore. The clones come from at least 3 to 5 places all over the world and quality is not the same. There is good quality aftermarket but you have to know where to find it. Also some times the better vendor does not make the model you want (small 55 amp or larger 60-70 amp unit).

 

[osxuser]

The one installed on the Glasair i work on seemed like a pretty cheap knock-off, and conversely the Suzuki-rebuilt one I put on the Whitman Tailwind seems to be better quality, but that is just impressions from the outside case and stuff. The Suzuki one actually SAYS NipponDenso on it, whereas the Kragen version on the Glasair does not.

 

[Naked Lady]

Hour two of flight testing. Thwack! Nut holding pulley spins off. Pulley and belt chewed up. Prop needs to come off to put on new belt. Van's never heard of such a thing.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

The rebuild & aftermarket auto elect industry is a mess

The auto alternator rebuild and aftermarket industry is a snake pit.

The typical 40-60 amp small frame alternators we love that ND made have been out of production for 10-15 years. Most new cars have units that make more juice than 60 amps, and they are larger and heavier.

Auto elect re-builders have long had a reputation for being of dubious and inconsistent quality. Car mechanics talk about having the same problem with new units going bad, fast, like a miss universe in new york.

The aftermarket auto elect part makers are also a mess. You have everyone making parts and some are just not up to specs, mostly from China. The better parts come from Taiwan, the other China.

The confusion is how to get the good stuff? I think Van has seen the light. I don't blame them; they trusted their supplier or the importer who just sold them cheap stuff. There is definitely better aftermarket and poor after-aftermarket stuff.

If you can get a new genuine ND that is in production its probably one from a tractor or forklift in production in the 40 amp range. They are not cheap. Niagara Airparts sold alternator kits with new ND units, but I see its off their site. My guess, the price went too high or they could not get new units any more.

The problem with new NDs, they are either small 40 amp units or large 90 amp units.

40 amps (45 amps at cruise RPM) I have is barely cutting it on paper. With simple day/night deluxe elect VFR panel, my all out night elect load is about 32 amps. That's less than 40 amps, but I don't like to run at more than 70% continuous total capacity. I'm using all incandescent lights. With LED Nav lights and a single strobe power supply driving only two strobes, verses the three separate strobe power supplies (wings and tail), I'd save some amps. All the night lights are about 12-13 amps, 5 amps for Nav, 7-8 amps for strobes. My day VFR load is only 9-12 amps.

I have a flywheel/ring gear pulley that is 7.5 inches not 9 inches so my alternator is a little under driven at idle. At fast idle I may only make 32 amps, at low idle about 5 amps less. So at night I have to be careful.

 

[glenn654]

lost pulley nut

Hey Naked Lady,
The same thing happened to me but with less damage. Last winter I installed Vans' 60 amp alt. I had my harmonic balancer removed and prop balanced during annual just before. While flying I noticed more vibration which I had not had before so after 3-4 hrs of flying time I decided I would reinstall the harmonic balancer. When I pulled the cowling, the pulley retaining nut fell out of the lower cowl...it apparently came off as I shut down the engine on the last flight, the pulley was still on the armature. I got lucky for once.

Glenn
N654RV @ OKZ

 

[gasman]

THIS WILL SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM...

David,
I would think the two leading choices to be the Plane Power internally regulated alternator (I'm currently leaning in that direction), or the expensive but extremely reliable B&C externally regulated. Van's now offers the Plane Power unit, but you check out the details at www.plane-power.com.

Vans has the best price. Look at the web site and see why it works. Call and ask questions....

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Check/replacement of Brushes at 500 hours? Yes

With only 320 hours on the alternator now, it failed again...
This time, the brushes were worn completely. So, are these rebuilds really rebuilt? did I just go thru a set of brushes in 320 hours?
It really makes one wonder.


Jeff B RV7
www.westerncoloradotrade.net
EAA Tech Counselor - CFII/MEI - Transition Training

Yes 320 hours is short but 500-600 hours is not unheard of. BRUSHES are a weak point on any alternator, especially when spinning at 9 or 10,000 rpm all the time. +300 hours is low but 800-1000 hours, yes. Folks, plan on inspecting and replacing the brushes as preventive maintenance. They are cheap. I use to say 500 hours to check/replace, but if you fly REAL high all the time (+10,000 ft) in dry air, may be cut that in interval in half, or 300 hours.

I wounder if high RPM wears them out faster. It would make sense, spin faster = wear faster. You may get some benefit from a slightly larger alternator pulley. I know Plane Power uses a custom pulley that is a little larger than a stock ND. (Update - Plane power was nice to answer dumb questions and their pulley is 2.75". Sock ND pulleys come in different diameters but typically in the 2.5" size, plus/minus a little.


Most lycoming flywheel pulleys are the larger 9.75" dia. So if you have the smaller 2.4" alt pulley: @ 2,700 rpm * 9.75/2.4 = 10,969 rpm. Even in cruise (2,500 rpm) you are over 10,000 rpm.

You only need about 5,000 or 6,000 rpm to get rated output, 8,000 rpm max. A 3" pulley would be about right (but 2.8" may be all that will fit?) Here are some vendors: 2.8 pulley and 3.25 pulley if you can fit it.

2.8" will probably fit on any RV; Larger Dia pulleys may be too large and interfere with the cowl? Consider modifying the tension arm so the alternator fit's closer to the engine, using a smaller belt to increase cowl clearance. You do have the option to find a Lycoming fly-wheel with the smaller 7.5" pulley verses the typical 9.75" pulley/flywheel. I have the smaller one and it does wonders to slow alternator rpm. Even with a 2.5" pulley you only turn 7,500 rpm in cruise @ 2,500 rpm. Any thing over 8,000 rpm is kind of a waste, however they will handle higher rpm, up to say 11,000 rpm max, but it will wear out faster (brushes & bearings). If you do a ration of 11,000/7,500 that is almost 50% more life so 300 hours is 450 hours.

Here is a builder that got 800 hours? I suggested builders check their brushes and consider replacement at 500 hours and than every 100 hours, but again they're so cheap, you might as well replace them if you have the back open. You can change them while the alternator is on the plane. May be 1st check at 300 hours might be better or about 2-3 years worth of flying?

As the brushes wear they have less contact pressure and can do weird things like bounce or damage the slip ring, so preventative maintenance is not a bad idea, like an oil change.

With the low price and high quality of Plane Power units, which is a fairly new option for builders, in my opinion its the way to go. You get better brushes, pulley, new parts, proper cooling fans and OV protection. A few other things that Plane power has over stock or even B&C are the brushes, they are made to operate at high altitude (low humidity), aerospace quality. Most cars don't normally operate at +10,000 feet and dry air kills stock brushes. Plane-Power also has proper direction cooling fans for the Lycs rotation, which may help wear; it can't hurt to cool the brushes more. If you fly 8,000 ft and below most of the time it does not matter. Fly at 28,000 ft, although unlikely in a RV, the brush life will be cut dramatically. We shall see how long the PP brushes last.

(Update - talking to Plane Power, they where very nice to answer my stupid questions about brushes. They recommend first inspection at 750 hours. They do have better brushes, in my opinion, but they felt even stock brushes should last a reasonable time period if you are not flying super high in the Flight Levels. Remember most alternators on factory planes for decades have been right off cars.)

 

[Captain Avgas]

No QA

I think Van has seen the light. I don't blame them; they trusted their supplier or the importer who just sold them cheap stuff. There is definitely better aftermarket and poor after-aftermarket stuff.

George, you're being generous to Vans. They sold unreliable alternators because for years they bought the cheapest thing they could lay their hands on. It's the same with their powdercoating....no written specification and buying purely on price from several different subcontractors...and no quality control testing...all in all, a sure recipe for passing on problems to builders.

Vans needs to understand that cheap is not the same as good value for money...particularly in flying machines.

 

[jclark]

A bit over the top I would say ...

George, you're being generous to Vans. They sold unreliable alternators because for years they bought the cheapest thing they could lay their hands on. It's the same with their powdercoating....no written specification and buying purely on price from several different subcontractors...and no quality control testing...all in all, a sure recipe for passing on problems to builders.

Vans needs to understand that cheap is not the same as good value for money...particularly in flying machines.

To say that Van's had "no QA" is a bit over the top and at least in my opinion and takes away from the point you seem to be trying to make.

Yes, Van's has **made available to us** some lower cost items. (many insist upon it)
And I have bought some (alternators). And some have failed.

But **I** am the one who chose to "take advantage of" the lower cost item which was not likely to be as good as the more expensive (better made) one. When it broke, they were there for me. When the better one broke, they were there. I finally woke up and bought their "best" item (Plane Power) and have since had no problems. I am GLAD they offer us "options".

We are often so quick to beat people up when the price is high (B&C) and insist on a lower cost option. When the lower cost one fails to work as well as the high priced item, we beat people up for offering it. C'mon! Give the folks a break.

Kinda like being upset because the cheaper vertical card compass does not work as well as the PAI-700.

James
2 defective "cheaper" alternators that I chose to buy <from Van's>
1 "much better" (more costly) Plane Power alternator that is now working fine <from Van's>
1 "lot more expensive" alternator in another RV from B&C that I expect will work for a LONG time

<<off soapboax>>

 

[Yukon]

Come on Bob. Van is the best of the best. If people don't want a cheap alternator, they have the option of many more expensive ones. I bought Plane Power because I know that the cheapest is not always the best. Don't expect Nordstrom quality if you are only willing to pay Walmart prices.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

I agree but I think they did not really know better

George, you're being generous to Vans. They sold unreliable alternators because for years they bought the cheapest thing they could lay their hands on. It's the same with their powdercoating....no written specification and buying purely on price from several different subcontractors...and no quality control testing...all in all, a sure recipe for passing on problems to builders.

Vans needs to understand that cheap is not the same as good value for money...particularly in flying machines.

I hear you and you know how diplomatic I am. I really think they JUST DID NOT KNOW in the alternator case. Van and company are know for being fugal, which is good for us when it comes to kit prices, but you are right of course, "You get what you pay for".

I talked to Van's Tom Green; I begged Tom for quite some time to get better alternators every time I looked at atypical failures. They said they knew of many returns, but many don't report problems to Vans. They just go buy another from an auto part store.

Tom justified the failures by saying they only get a few back from the many they sell. That may be true, but again many people just went away, getting them replaced or fixed on their own. Also, no doubt many are still building and have never installed the unit yet. I also tried to explain it was not the number failed, but the way they failed.


Tom also told me or implied the problems where mostly people installing them incorrectly, which may be true, but I knew some where just BOGUS alternators. The OV relay some added on was to blame, when builders "tested" their alternator to destruction. That is clearly not the alternators fault. Never cut the B-lead off while its running, it will distroy the alternator.

Still I told Van many failures I knew about could not be explained. It was not a builder boo-boo or OV relay.

However some do operate their alternator improperly. I preach, DO NOT turning the alternator ON and OFF while the engine is running and spinning the alternator. They are not made to work that way. I could blame Van for not giving builders good installation or operation instructions. I guess pilots see a switch and have to move it. However why would you do this? Just turn the ALT on with the master before start and off with the master after idle-cutoff shut down. Simple.

The unit I bought from Niagara Air parts had instructions that where very clear, DON'T cycle the ALT switch (IGN lead) while its under load and spinning. They also suggested not using a single seperate ALT switch. They do recommend a single DPST switch for both the master BAT/ALT, so when you turn both on and off together. BTW Plane Power is wired differently and does not work the same way, so you can play "switch monkey" and look at your volt/amp meter for fun. However why?

To their credit, Van does warranty and replaces units, but replacing a bad alternator with another low quality unit is not a deal either.

I tried to educate Van's and even told them where to buy BETTER new quality clone units. I don't know if I had anything to do with their changing, but I like to think I helped them along. I don't know who they ended up buying from, the vendor I suggested or another, but its got to be better than the old vendor. We shall see.

I also recommended Plane Power to Van's before they sold them. I talked to Plane power before Van sold them and knew they had a quality product. I am not bragging, I knew what you knew, the failure rate was way beyond normal. Now we have plane-power as an option, which is a good value and quality.

Acura, Honda, Toyota, Lexus and industrial & agricultural equip use ND alternators. The consumer and industry standard expects and usually find them to be very reliable, lasting at least 10 years & say 150,000 miles (I got 225,000 miles on one). I bought a new ND OEM unit from my RV (before plane power was around). Its not rebuilt or clone, its original ND. I expect reliability just like I expect from the ND in my Acura. Of course I will play switch monkey with it and keep it as cool as possible.


What Van was selling was dead on arrival or ready to fail. It's not to say all parts in the units where bad, but QC was awful. One did short out with a loose screw that was striped out due to over tightening. That is sad.

 

[Yukon]

Show of Hands

George, I think Tom's probably right. Only the low time failures are written up here on the forum. I wonder how many of Van's alternators are giving good service? How about a show of hands?

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Tom may have a point, but really.....?

George, I think Tom's probably right. Only the low time failures are written up here on the forum. I wonder how many of Van's alternators are giving good service? How about a show of hands?

Don't know John. Tom may have a point. They sell boat loads to RV'ers and other builders besides. May be it was a bad batch? Who knows but I guess that is the point. A recent "screw loose" case shorted the alternator and causes a genuine, honest to goodness, over voltage, which is rare. In this case it was not a mild 16-18 volts it was enough to do damage to many panel components; I estimate it got to be at least 30 to 45 volts or higher, to do what it did to two garmin panel mount units (among other things).

The debate about quality and cost is a good one, but if you do have a deluxe glass panel you may want to go deluxe with alternator (ie plane power). If day vfr with simple panel than put what ever in and replace it when and if it dies.

Most of the failures in the past where benign, just going dead or a mild voltage instability / mild OV conditions (16-18 volts), not enough to cause mass carnage. The recent failure I mentioned above happened to Frank, an RV'er, and he did get a "screw job" from his Van alternator. Up to this point it was mostly nuisance failures, but this was just a bummer. I hope its the only one we get like it.

I know this dude name "Murphy" and any thing can happen, as always, but this is some crazy poor quality even if it't just a FEW. It is one thing to have the alternator quit dead and another to have loose parts shorting and causing hard OV's. This is the first and only hard OV that I have found and documented, hope the last.

From my research there are many manufactures building parts for out of production auto parts, mostly from China. I can tell you not all of it is good. There is poor quality "Knock Off" *%#@ coming out of China. I guess the patient is expired so they can make it, not that patients stops them. (It is true, they have new Movies and Books like Harry Potter before we do, and they are all Bootleg. There are Harry Potter books JKR never wrote! ha-ha oh my. They also make prescription drug counterfeit made with dry wall! Nice.)

There is the good China stuff (usually from Taiwan not main land). I don't know the details of who, what and where with Van's supplier, but I do suspect they where going cheap as Captain Avgas mentioned.

I'm still a big Van fan. They support the warranty claims and hope that one "screw loose" incident stays the only one. (BTW I don't think Frank told Van about the screw loose deal.)

If I had one of these units, I'd probably take it apart and have a good look, check screws are tight, not stripped, brushes not worn and aligned. The Voltage regulator seems to be a sore spot. I might consider having a spare or just replacing it with a good quality OEM ND part?

Its all gussing John, but I have tracked a bunch of problems and there is a disconnect between what I think reliability should be and what we have seen. However with 5,000 RV's flying at least 100-150 hours / yr, assuming 1/3rd had Vans 60 amp alternator, that could be 1/4 million hours a year? Wild estimations I know. However I am agreeing with you, failure rate verses service may not be bad. However screw loose and DOB "dead out of box" does not build confidence.