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Bob Greenall greenall@ptd

I'm New Here
I am currently building an rv-7.Can anyone tell me what the judges at oshkosh,for example look at in workmanship.I would like to build an award winning aircraft.Thank you Bob Greenall.
 
Good Luck is Right!

Mel might be able to shed some light on this. I sincerely believe the guidelines are where you have to start then there is some "selling" that is not common knowledge. Perhaps some forum followers can give some guidance on this part of the competition.

Bob Axsom
 
Like Rosie said, the judging guidelines are a good start. The main things looked at are clean lines, straight rivet lines, fit, exposed edges, neatness. If you are there when they come by, that is a big bonus. Talk the airplane up. "Sell it". Point out modifications, especially if they are about safety.
I won awards at Sun-N-Fun 2 years in a row and I promise, my airplane is not that nice. Most all judges are builders. Talk their language.
 
Start with the official EAA Judging Standards. Take a hard look at the "aircraft scoring decision tree", the 11 point tic list in paragraph IV-H of the Custombuilt section, and the actual judging sheet. In basic, a judge looks at the aircraft one section at a time, scoring per the decision tree. Although fit and finish is the paramount issue, safety trumps all; a safety problem will take you out of contention.

The top airplanes are often within 3 points total. They're all nice, so little things count....sometimes as little as how you bent and trimmed your cotter keys. I'm not kidding.

Judges can only judge what they can see. Top finishers stay with their airplanes and open everything for inspection. In general, judges will open things that are readily accessable (baggage doors, oil doors, canopy, etc), but they will not remove an RV cowl. If they can't see inside your engine compartment, they can't score it better than average. You just lost a few points.

Put together a nice presentation book, one that shows the build process, in particular the fact that you built it. See that "judges discretion" at #9 on the judging sheet? That's where you'll lose enough points to take you out of the top spot if the judge suspects you're a checkbook builder. Judges use that discretion in other ways too. Difficulty factor has an assigned point scale in Warbirds, but not in Custombuilt. None the less, Custombuilt judges will often award an extra point to a slowbuild project vs a quickbuild, and spectacular paint you clearly did yourself is always good for another point or two. You get the idea.

Speaking of checkbooks....a lot of folks think simple airplanes don't stand a chance compared to those with (for example) $100K instrument panels. Not true. Nothing in the Standards offers points for cubic dollars.....and most judges are Regular Joes on the income scale. I've seen Grand Champions that didn't even have a radio.

I'd suggest keeping the selling to a minimum. Do answer questions, and if you have an interesting feature, do point it out. Don't follow him around, blabber on, or try to peek at his sheet. Judging requires a certain degree of concentration; let the guy do his job.

A regional fly-in might have 25 or 30 RV's entered in judging and only award Champion and Reserve. That means (like it or not) the judges will eliminate the obvious non-contenders with a quick look for the most common RV "errors". I put "errors" in quotation marks because none of them result in a bad airplane; they are merely a quick way of sorting out the perfect from the less-than-perfect. Examples are (1) elevator counterweights don't equally align with the stabilizer, (2) wingtip light lenses are not flush or badly fitted, (3) poor gear intersection fairings, upper or lower, and wheelpants at different AOA's, (4) uneven cowl gaps and edges, (6) the ever-popular ugly tail intersection fairing, (7) obvious sheet metal and riveting errors, and (8)generally poor paint. The top airplanes are likely to be near-perfect on all these items, and the judges spend serious time on a much deeper look.

If you know you have a really nice airplane, it can be worthwhile to include at least one interesting innovation, cool trick, or doo-dad. Maybe a sexy throttle quadrant, a useful safety addition, or better service access...
something that might be worth an extra point. However, don't go nuts. If it is just a stupid pet trick and adds 5 lbs, the judges won't be impressed.

Most of the best builders are not satisfied with their own airplanes, which tells you an awful lot about their mindset. It's a mental illness of sorts; perfect is not quite good enough <g>
 
Stay at Oshkosh or SnF the whole week, there are those that believe that matters.

The grand champion of Oshkosh a few years ago didn't even get a mention at SnF the next spring. His theory was that they don't like it when you don't stay the whole week.

Don't know, but that one was strange. That plane was as close to perfect as they get.
 
AlexPeterson said:
His theory was that they don't like it when you don't stay the whole week.
Click to expand...
There may be some truth to this, but not for the reasons that you think. We parking volunteers entertain ourselves during slow periods by making bets on which RV will win which award. The best indication of who is in the running is the number of judges' initials on the "Judge Me" prop card. Every airplane entered for judging gets at least 3 looks, as evidenced by the 3 boxes for judges initials on the card. Those that are in the running get many more than that. By Thursday or Friday, the top contenders have a dozen or more. It seems that the early judges all go back and tell their friends, "hey, go look at the white RV-8 in row 323" and the other judges do so.

If you leave the show on Thursday morning, you will not be around to gather the required number of "looks" to be in the running. That is my theory anyway.

BTW- the Spruce Moose has never gotten more than 3 looks, but I don't care!
 
<<Every airplane entered for judging gets at least 3 looks, as evidenced by the 3 boxes for judges initials on the card. Those that are in the running get many more than that.>>

Scores are averaged. More opinions evens out minor scoring differences between individual judges, which is important when the top airplanes are very close. And judges may go back for a second look too. Leaving on the second day of the show may be a disadvantage or an advantage, depending on the scoring trends of the particular initial judges you drew. Some judges are very conservative and some are a bit more generous.

None of it means you can't win if you go home before the close of judging. The judges couldn't care less about who stays or goes; they just want the necessary time to score it fairly. Plenty of Grand Champions have been notified by telephone, including at least one Lindy RV in recent memory.
 
Builders/Owners

Almost reluctant to bring this up but this issue has been demonstrated in many Fly-ins and shows I've attended. That is, airplanes that win awards when the owner had absolutely nothing to do with building the aircraft. Or, had minimal involvement. One example, the plane was built by a hired gun and the guy had it finished by a custom car painter. Although not confirmed, it was said that the paint job cost over $25K. Yeah, it pretty much won everything. If you didn't build it, it shouldn't be "in play."

I have not seen this plane again at any show, Flyin or event. And, it is from the "Left" coast where I attend events.

On the flip side there are some incredible examples of true builds out there that do extremely well. These are great to see and where you can learn the most. Also, most of these were built to fly, not to just show.
 
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Show Plane or Go Plane...or both?

This thread reminds me of some building advice I received from my Tech Counselor, RV-4 builder Mark Spry. When he realized I had been fretting over some details, he told me I needed to decide up front whether I wanted to build a show plane or one to fly, not that they are mutually exclusive. But that does help a builder in some of the many decisions along the way.

So it's good to ask this question up front if one wants to build a show plane. I've never liked finding what the rules and conventions are when I'm in the middle of a project, whether it's at work or in my hobbies.
Don
 
I'm a judge and have enjoyed reading this thread. Most of what I see is correct and good advice. Personally, I like it when a builder is available to give a tour. Too often special innovations are hidden and not detected by judges.

Always have a photo album. This is to prove you built the airplane. You should be in the pictures (duh). No documentation, lose 5 points and not much chance of winning.

Park your plane with all the engine controls pushed in to make it look "cleaner" and I will zero you for careless/reckless practices. You can imagine what OSH or SNF will be like if a homebuilt gets looose and runs WFO through the crowd. A little sense goes a long way. Judges aint dumb and won't appreciate that degree of salesmanship.

No fire extiguisher will cost you a couple points with most judges for poor safety practices.

Many if not all the winners, begin building their airplane with the intent of taking a trophy. They use lots of tricks to make them special... for instance, sheet metal builders have been known to bond the AL skins to the formers/ribs etc and then after the adhesive sets up they rivet it. It makes for a VERY flat surface and takes tons of time and work.

Slow build airplanes generally get more points than quick builds under the degree of difficulty category (again generally), not to exclude any spectacular aircraft.

We try diligently to ensure amature builders get credit for building THEIR airplane. We can smell a commercially built or contracted plane. IMHO, commercially built AB aircraft is cheating, in violation of law, not fair to real builders and poses a significant threat to the entire experimental AB aircraft world.

I love it when the builder tells me he/she overhauled the engine, sewed their own interiors, and painted it him/herself. Really amazing how talented some builders are.

The highest scoring airplanes inevitably have judges lying beneath them, not napping, but looking hard for a defect. A few years ago, the grand champion was a stunning red Falco. In the wheel wells, were different colored woods, beautifully varnished. Looked like fine furniture. Wow.

It seems the really nice airplanes get lots of attention as we all like looking at nice stuff. It's amazing how high they will score and how little difference there is in points between top contenders. Last year there was less than 1 point spread. Points are entered into a computer daily and carefully reviewed, averaged, and score sheets checked for accuracy. Judges do not compare notes or scores, yet the consistancy between judges is amazing.

I remember knocking one airplane from 100 (perfect) points to 99 because his engine instruments were of different brands and didn't match.
Seems petty, but at the championship level, these planes are so close to perfect that searching (hard) for flaws is what usually what determines the champion. It won grand champion anyway, as I recall it's score was something like 99.79 points.

Keep building, and yeah, I gave my own airplane an 83 which is still a pretty nice plane, but no trophy.

Happy Building!

RB
 
<<Dan, You seem to know a lot about the process. Are you involved in judging at OSH or SnF? >>

Been on both ends of the stick; OSH Lindy, GC at SnF and SERFI, then nine years judging at SERFI, three as chief. I can't clear the time to volunteer at OSH/SnF, but maybe someday if they'll take me. My compliments to RB; it is a huge commitment.

BTW, I'm very much with Darwin and RB on the checkbook builder issue. Sadly, a few slip through. When the real story gets out later, nobody is more disappointed than the homebuilt judges who worked the airplane.
 
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