[pierre smith]

Jenny and I were coming home from Beaufort, S.C. yestedray only to see huge thunderstorms on the 496, headed from west to east, directly over our home base ..2J3.

We notified the flight following controller, (Jacksonville, Fl.), that our new destination was KSBO, 30 miles south of home, to wait out the thunderstorms, now visually located.

On arrival at SBO, the runway had cars on it and also the taxiway, around 5:30 p.m. While we circled no one moved any vehicles and I thought about landing anyway...they were probably getting ready for a fireworks display, so we put our home base back in the 496 and 430W and decided that it looked like the last remnants of rain and that we could fit between two big ones and we did. Only the far end of the runway had rain and we hangared the airplane, with an hour of fuel remaining.

Later last night, the phone rang and it was the FAA, looking for an overdue airplane that hadn't landed at KSBO. I explained to her that I had been told by Atanta flight following that KSBO was 8 miles, 12 o'clock and I had acknowledged to squawk VFR, which I did and switched to KSBO's CTAF to no avail. That's when we saw the cars and headed home.

We weren't on a flight plan, so why did they call? I was half asleep so I returned her call this morning to clarify a coupla things and she said that all was well. I'm still scratching my head to A) figure out why they called and B) how she found my cell phone number.

Best,

 

[TS Flightlines]

glad you and Jenny made it home Pierre-

That does seem to be a bit strange to me, but what do I know!
Stay in touch.
Tom

 

[Jerry Fischer]

THE FAA...

Hi Pierre,
Glad you made it OK.
Probably would not hurt to fill out a NASA form to CYA in next 10 days. I'm surprised they called also since you had not filed a FP, but due to flight following they were'nt sure what happened. It happened to me one evening into EDE on a IFR FP as I neglected to close out after landing. I informed the controller that I had the field in sight and to cancel IFR. They must not have received the transmission as they called the location and wanted to know where I was. I too filled out the NASA form so I had no problem. See you at OSH as I'm working in HB Camping.
Blue Skies,
Jerry

 

[tkatc]

Nobody would come looking for you unless you filed a VFR flight plan and activated it.

Flight following does not afford you such a service.

Your story sounds very odd but i do suspect something. I suspect that the alternate airport was NOTAMed closed. I also suspect the controller who turned you loose to a closed airport (if that was the case) realized it was closed after you switched frequencies and that controller took action to locate you.

This is WILD speculation on my part but is the only thing that sort of makes sense given the details you provided. Either way, I am glad you are home safe without incident.

 

[erich weaver]

Nobody would come looking for you unless you filed a VFR flight plan and activated it.

Flight following does not afford you such a service.

REALLY? That was not my understanding. So if I disappear off the radar screen and/or lose radio contact while on flight following, the controller just shrugs his shoulders and continues with his job like nothing happened?

Doesnt make any sense to me.

erich

 

[fehdxl]

another data point

Similar thing happened to me back in February 2009. I was flying the newly purchased plane from Boise, ID to Wichita, KS with a fuel stop at Pines Bluff, WY. I had VFR flight following from BOI to 82V and about 10 miles from landing told the controller I had Pines Bluff in sight. He said, squawk 1200 switch to advisory, so I did and proceed to land.

Spent a short time on the ground re-fueling and then departed towards K50.

After I landed in Kansas and spoke with the previous owner letting him know I made it fine, he told me that the FAA had called him inquiring as to closing a flight plan and what happened at Pines Bluff. Of course they didn't have any of my information...I had only owned the plane for a day.

I guess once I called them back airborne on the next leg, they figured I was okay.

I also did not file a VFR plan nor activate a non-existant flight plan with Flight Service (different than ATC). Just airborne pick-up of flight following.

At the time I figured it was a mess up between Denver center and Cheyenne approach, since Cheyenne didn't seem to know what I was doing. But after hearing other strange stories, maybe this is an 'improvement' courtesy of DHS/NORAD and FAA integration post 9/11?

Just another data point.

-Jim

 

[az_gila]

In stormy weather we have had ATC calls to our airpark office number to check that planes have landed safely, even if they were on VFR FF only.

It just sounds like a controller is checking up a bit further than the regulations require...

 

[pierre smith]

Well, here it is.

I called the FSS today and there was no NOTAM for KSBO and besides, I didn't check because I wasn't planning on going there.

I then called the City manager and told him the story (phone # on Airnav.com). He was rather apologetic and was going to get to the bottom of it...ya think?

Anyway, all's well that ends well and I've learned another lesson...If you live in the Southern States, or any States where afternoon pop-up thunderstorms often happen, check NOTAMS for any airport that you might need to divert to...just in case, like we did yesterday, to be sure those airports aren't NOTAM'ed for a few hours' closures...you might need one of them!

Oh....and the money spent on the 496 and XM WX?...my wife wanted to kiss the unit...the best bang for the buck you can spend if you travel much.

Best,


PS. The FSS just called back and said that the field at KSBO HAD, in fact, been NOTAMED but from 8:00 p.m. to midnight! We arrived at 5:30 p.m.
and the cars wouldn't move.

 

[BillFear]

flight plan

On a recent VFR trip from Charlotte to Charleston I called for flight following. They opened a VFR flight plan all the way to my destination. I suppose the flight plan was closed because Charleston Exec has a tower. If it had been a CTAF field, I may have had the same issue. always learning!

 

[bkthomps]

I file IFR everywhere I go (XC's), I have yet to experience any negative results from this. Controllers are very accommodating and will gladly grant block altitudes or multiple deviations at pilots discretion, I can't think of a reason not to and continue to do so.

 

[John Clark]

I file IFR everywhere I go (XC's), I have yet to experience any negative results from this. Controllers are very accommodating and will gladly grant block altitudes or multiple deviations at pilots discretion, I can't think of a reason not to and continue to do so.

Good plan. The only drawbacks are routing, out here in the west some of the MEAs are very high and climbs into the teens can be avoided with a little careful VFR navigation and, of course, the need to be qualified and equipped to file IFR.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[John Clark]

On a recent VFR trip from Charlotte to Charleston I called for flight following. They opened a VFR flight plan all the way to my destination. I suppose the flight plan was closed because Charleston Exec has a tower. If it had been a CTAF field, I may have had the same issue. always learning!

I doubt that "they opened a VFR flight plan." That is a function of an FSS, not ATC. Flight following, in general, is better because if you do have an issue you are already talking to ATC. But remember that the controller can dump you at will if the IFR traffic load increases or if an ajoining sector refuses the handoff.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[fehdxl]

I file IFR everywhere I go (XC's) ... I can't think of a reason not to and continue to do so.

Me too. The only negative I can think of is that while IFR if I inadvertently deviate from altitude I could be violated...a lot less likely while VFR.

Of course, I'm hand flying 100% of the time. A good auto-pilot would even minimize this negative.

-Jim

 

[pierre smith]

If I had filed IFR..

I would've been in a bit of a pickle, had I filed IFR for the flight yesterday after making an LPV approach into the uncontrolled airport at SBO, only to find cars on the runway! I don't see how filing could've helped in any way.

I wouldn't have had an alternate because SBO was clear.

Best,

 

[SmilingJack]

ELT 406?

Pierre,

Do you have a 406 ELT?

I'm only guessing that if you do that may be how they got your cell number.

Also, maybe the controller was either worried or it's a CBP/TSA deal where they just wanted to make sure.

Who knows???

And I guess as far as the cars go....you can't blame them for showing up early to be sure they got a good parking spot for the fireworks! The Notam should have figured that cars would show early.

Of course, if you landed there work have be a better show

 

[N42AH]

Filed a flt paln

I doubt that "they opened a VFR flight plan." That is a function of an FSS, not ATC. Flight following, in general, is better because if you do have an issue you are already talking to ATC. But remember that the controller can dump you at will if the IFR traffic load increases or if an ajoining sector refuses the handoff.

One of our airpark residents who was on flt following with approach last week was also called after he got home. Apparently the controller opened a flight plan and didn't tell the pilot. So they were obviously looking for him. Interestingly enough the called him as he is listed as the airport manager to do a ramp check for his aircraft.

Pierre...it's the government...they have ways to know everyone's cell phone numbers. Black helicopters anyone?

 

[az_gila]

[..... Apparently the controller opened a flight plan and didn't tell the pilot. ...

I wonder if that is why sometimes your FF trip shows up on FlightAware and other times it does not?

Or is there something else in the reporting to the big FAA data base that comes into play?

I had it both ways on my May cross-US trip...

 

[scsmith]

Fascinating!

This is all really interesting.
I'm waiting to hear from Pierre if he has a 406 ELT -- hard to imagine how else they would get a cell number unless you listed it somewhere like on a build website or something and they googled you.

I guess its kind of a good thing that Flight Following will (at least unofficially?) open a flight plan, and arrange for follow-up. The interesting lesson here for me is that when I occasionionally use FF, I will often give my destination as a nearby but well-known airport rather than the small obscure airport I am headed for, just so I don't have to explain where it is. For example, it is difficult to explain to a controller where "Air Sailing Gliderport" is ( a private strip on the sectional). But if that means that they are later calling Reno Stead to see if I showed up, I'm creating more of a problem for them without intending to. I guess I'll start giving my real destination, if the pay-off is that they are actually looking out for me.

Thanks for posting the whole experience, Pierre.

 

[fehdxl]

I would've been in a bit of a pickle, had I filed IFR for the flight yesterday after making an LPV approach into the uncontrolled airport at SBO, only to find cars on the runway! I don't see how filing could've helped in any way.
Best,

Pierre, Why a pickle? Going around for obstructions on the runway isn't really any different than going missed approach for weather.

I would have just flown the missed approach procedure, went back to approach/center frequency and explained the situation. They probably would have cleared you direct to wherever you wanted to go; and you would have still been IFR.

Sure, if you were in actual IMC to 500 feet, NORDO, low on fuel, and found cars on the runway at your primary destination without an alternate... that might have been a pickle.

On the other hand, if you *had* to land there, they have a telephone and the numbers to people who could have cleared the runway for you...of course that would have taken some time.

Just my thoughts.

-Jim

 

[PCHunt]

Flight Aware

Gil, it's my understanding that FlightAware gets its data from the FAA ATC computers. So if you are on either an IFR clearance, or on VFR flight following, your N-number is in the system, and the FlightAware computer picks it up.

I don't think it has anything to do with the flight plan. Even if you file a VFR flight plan, activate it with FSS, and then don't talk to any controllers, you won't be assigned a squawk, and therefore FlightAware won't be "aware" of your flight.

I could be wrong, and standing by to be corrected.

I wonder if that is why sometimes your FF trip shows up on FlightAware and other times it does not?

Or is there something else in the reporting to the big FAA data base that comes into play?

I had it both ways on my May cross-US trip...

 

[N546RV]

Gil, it's my understanding that FlightAware gets its data from the FAA ATC computers. So if you are on either an IFR clearance, or on VFR flight following, your N-number is in the system, and the FlightAware computer picks it up.

I don't think it has anything to do with the flight plan. Even if you file a VFR flight plan, activate it with FSS, and then don't talk to any controllers, you won't be assigned a squawk, and therefore FlightAware won't be "aware" of your flight.

I could be wrong, and standing by to be corrected.

Well, he did hit on something interesting I've noticed... I always thought that FlightAware worked as you describe: if you're getting flight following, you show up. But I've had flights where I had radar service the entire way, yet only part of the trip showed up.

Example

On that flight, I switched directly from PDK Tower to Atlanta Approach and picked up advisories, yet my track didn't appear until I was quite a bit further south, at least 45 minutes into the flight.

I've had this happen other times as well, and always wondered what the difference was.

 

[tkatc]

REALLY? That was not my understanding. So if I disappear off the radar screen and/or lose radio contact while on flight following, the controller just shrugs his shoulders and continues with his job like nothing happened?

Doesnt make any sense to me.

erich

Pierre claimed the controller terminated his flight following, he didn't disappear.

Anyway, i think this topic came up on my controller thread but i will clear up some things here.

A VFR flight plan is a flight service function. When you file a VFR flight plan with them, and then activate it, they will come looking for you within 30
minutes of your ETA if you dont call them to terminate the flight plan.

This service is particularly helpful if you crack up upon landing....if there is nobody around to see it, there soon will be.

Flight following is a different animal. That service is there to alert you to potential traffic, perhaps even special use airspace or TFRs. Typically once you have your destination is sight, you are terminated and are on your own. If you crack up on landing nobody will be coming for you unless they see/hear it.

As for flightaware, it is linked in somehow to the ATC computers, and will show your progress if the controller enters you into one of those computers. Different controllers (center, terminal, tower) all have slightly different equipment and thus have different capabilities. They all have the option of entering you into the computer but some equipment makes that easier than others, therefore, you may not be entered into the computer everytime you get flight following. Terminal controllers have a set of local VFR codes. If you are given a local VFR code it is all but guaranteed you WONT be tracked by flightaware. If you are given a transponder code that starts with 0, chances are you are on a local code and will not be tracked. This is not 100% but probably 98% true.

Hope this clears it up.

Pierre, my hunch sounds like it might have been correct... I hope you are as curious as I am and call the approach control/ center that was working you and get a definitive answer. I LOVE to hear that I am right!!

 

[fehdxl]

Not sure if this is 100% accurate, but here is my take on the subject.

When being passed to a different sector/center/approach, the controller will typically say one of the two phrases.

(a) "N12345 contact xyz center on 123.45" -- In this case I believe you have been entered into the big 'system' and your strip has been electronically passed and accepted from one controller to the next. I'll postulate Flightaware will be tracking you.

(b) "N12345 radar service terminated, contact xyz center on 123.45 for further flight following" -- In this case I believe you have not been entered in the big 'system' and were only being tracked by abc center (may be on a 0xxx or some other transponder code). I'll postulate Flightaware will *not* be tracking you.

Just an educated WAG.

-Jim

 

[tkatc]

Jim, your assumptions could be true...and false. Certainly, if option "b" happens, you will not be tracked by flightaware, at least not any longer.

There are 2 types of "hand-offs" made from one controller to the next. Automated or manual. Automated is the type off handoff that IFR recieve because they are in the computer. The controllers "flashes" the target to the next controller who makes an entry to confirm receipt. No words are spoken between the controllers. Manual is the type of handoff where the information is verbally passed via landline.

If you are "terminated" as you approach the next sector, you were not handed off for any number of reasons. If you ARE instructed to contact the next controller, you were more than likely handed off. As i said before, controllers have different types of equipment to get the job done. Some equipment is better than others but juat becquse you were handed off does NOT necessarily mean you are entered into the "machine", as we like to call the ATC computer.

 

[jrs14855]

alternate

If SBO was closed for some special event it should have had X(s) on the runway. Does SBO have AWOS?? If the runway was obstructed but no X the manager was not doing their job.
I have on rare occasion heard pilots ask ATC to open a flight plan. I consider this a last resort if there is no other communication available.
TSA is looking at a lot of private airplanes. Too many people with time on their hands.
I operate out of the ABQ class C 24/7. Sometimes in the early morning hours departure will forget about me. If I'm out of comm range I just squack 1200 and press on. No phone calls ever. The phone calls DO HAPPEN when someone forgets to cancel IFR, puts the airplane in the hangar and goes home. ATC is obligated to track down the pilot. Where the airport is unattended it is quite a hassle for ATC.

 

[az_gila]

Not sure if this is 100% accurate, but here is my take on the subject.
...
(a) "N12345 contact xyz center on 123.45" -- In this case I believe you have been entered into the big 'system' and your strip has been electronically passed and accepted from one controller to the next. I'll postulate Flightaware will be tracking you.
....

I had several long flights on one transponder code across different centers and never showed up in FlightAware. Other shorter legs did.

One time last year I was dropped from FF due to low altitudes over AR and switched to 1200. FlightAware and the big FAA computer actually interpolated my track to my lunch stop in MO. After an hour lunch/fuel/break I continued to Owensboro, KY with new FF and a new code.

FlightAware managed to merge both of these legs into a single track with no stop.

The logic conecting FlightAware and the FAA, or the FAA logic into it's big computer must be very strange...

 

[pierre smith]

Mornin' all....

For the record, I don't have a 406 ELT.

I have also CYA'd and filed the NASA ESR form,

Thanks guys,

 

[Bullseye]

If the runway was obstructed but no X the manager was not doing their job.

At the last few airports out of which I've been based, runways close all the time without x's.

Is there a rule somewhere that says they should be x'ed?