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woodsideraff

Well Known Member
Even though I have over 2,000 hours, with an intrument and multi-engine rating, I have never done aerobatics. In all my years of training it has been ingrained in me to avoid these unusual attitudes, which on instruments, can lead to bad results. Consequently, when the horizon is not where it belongs, I get a high degree of anxiety.

I have a beautifull RV8A and would like to explore if this type of acitivity is "right for me". (I really do not want to "consult my doctor", even though he is a pilot.)

I'm looking for instruction in the SC/GA/NC/FL area that could help me. Can anyone suggest instruction in aerobatics in this neighborhood?

Thanks and regards,

Rafael
 
Dude! (spoken in my best surfer voice...)

You're going to have a blast. Once you figure out that the RVs love to do unusual stuff, you'll wonder what took you so long!

Can't help you with the instructor in the SC area, but you definitely want to have an RV pilot who is competent in aerobatic flight to walk you through this!
 
See Kent Gorton in Atlanta. He gave me enough spin training to ALMOST make me see my lunch again. He also has a nice Extra in case you want to get insane aerobatic training.

One key point to remember with RV's and aerobatics is that they are clean ships and pick up speed quickly on the down-lines. You really need to keep the g load on when going down hill in order to prevent over-speeding. Learning aerobatics in an RV is not the same as learning in a Pitts...
 
I'll be in SC for a week 8-15 November. I'm a CFII blah, blah... more important F/A-18 out of control flight instructor and T-34 C spin instructor for the Navy. If you just want to go up and give it a whirl we can probably set something up.
My work is 425-304-4770 or shoot me a PM.
I'll be near Pageland, SC. Several airports around we could work out of for an intro to see if you like it.
WISC
 
Rafael, Opinion - I would not allow anyone to give you initial acro instruction in your own airplane, since I assume you do not have dual controls...or at least with the most important one - power. It appears Kent Gorton has an RV-6. Since you'd be a newbie, it would be ideal to have some dual acro instruction in an RV, but if you get enough basic acro experience, there's no reason not to start exploring the aerobatic envelope by yourself in your own airplane.

Yes, as is always mentioned, RV's build speed more quickly than some other types, but regarding performing aerobatics I don't think it's much of an issue for anyone who has had proper aerobatic training and is aware of this. I think this characteristic of RV's would most likely get into trouble the person who is attempting to learn aerobatics on their own and botches a maneuver, is too tentative pulling, doesn't pull power, gets near Vne, panics, and then really pulls hard.

Take the loop, for example. Anyone who has learned to do a loop properly and float it correctly will perform the same pull/G's on the exit as at the beginning...and as clean as RVs are, like any other airplane they will LOSE speed if your entry and exit altitude is the same. You will actually have to increase power (if you have any left) on the backside to retain the energy you started with. No need to pull power for this one. Half-Cubans tend to be the maneuver most commonly resulting in high exit airspeeds when first learning. RV's are clean, but their ultra low aspect ratio wings generate a lot of induced drag when they are loaded up. So don't be afraid to load the airplane...you won't accelerate downhill quite as fast as you think. Just don't wait too late to pull. :)

Advanced spin training is also highly recommended...not just plain vanilla upright spins. You'll need a fully-aerobatic plane and instructor for this. Here's a list of instructors the IAC maintains:

http://www.iacusn.org/schools/index.php
 
Dual Controls

I have dual controls, including rudder and trhottle for the back seat.

I assume a qualified instructor could demonstrate as well as keep us alive controlling from the back.

Cheers,

RL
 
woodsideraff said:
I have dual controls, including rudder and trhottle for the back seat.

I assume a qualified instructor could demonstrate as well as keep us alive controlling from the back.

Cheers,

RL
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That will help a lot, but (and I don't want to offend anyone, just stating a safety tip) please remember that the RV-8 with someone in the back seat is very pitch sensitive, and it is very easy to over-G until you get used to it. I personally don't do any real acro (1-G rolls maybe) with a passenger unless they are very light. So make sure that your instructor is personally familiar with the RV-8's handling characteristics at aft CG before jumping right in to aerobatics! Solo, of course, acro in an -8 is a piece of cake, and once you know you can keep the speed under control in the vertical down lines, you'll find it's very natural.

Personally, if I were starting aerobatic training from scratch, I'd get the fundamentals in a Citabria or Decathalon, then transfer the skills over to the -8 once I knew what it was like bing upside down and sideways.

Enjoy though - the -8 was built to do this stuff!

Paul
 
Weight and balance in aerobatics

I hate to be a pest in exploring all these issues before I take the big plunge. I want to minimize my anxiety.

Actually, I just re-weighed my airplane and, if I have a problem it is with a forward CG. I'm the standard FAA weight: 170 lbs. To be solo and keep the CG maneageble, I have to add 40 lbs at the rear of the lower baggage compartment. I have installed two nutplates to hold a couple of 20 lb lead weights. This brindgs the CG just forward of 80".

With even a 200lb passenger in the rear and no weights, I'm well within the CG limits for aerobatics. Solo, with no rear weight, I run out of trim in my landings!

Thus, I think having the instructor in the rear for learning aerobatics should not be a problem.

Best regards,

Rafael
 
woodsideraff said:
Actually, I just re-weighed my airplane and, if I have a problem it is with a forward CG. I'm the standard FAA weight: 170 lbs. To be solo and keep the CG maneageble, I have to add 40 lbs at the rear of the lower baggage compartment. I have installed two nutplates to hold a couple of 20 lb lead weights. This brindgs the CG just forward of 80".
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This seems like an unusually forward empty CG. Are you 100% sure of your new numbers (i.e. accurate scales, aircraft well leveled, no math errors, etc)?

Which engine and prop does your aircraft have? Where is the battery mounted? Does the aircraft have an inverted oil system?

I assume the nutplates that hold the weights are in the angles on the baggage floor ribs.
 
woodsideraff said:
Thus, I think having the instructor in the rear for learning aerobatics should not be a problem.
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You might think that....are you willing to bet your life on it - and the life of your instructor? I am not trying to be an alarmist, I simply have hundreds of hours flying aerobatics in the RV-8.

Aft CG Acro is quite doable - but the first time a person tries, they might be very surprised at how it feels. If your instructor does NOT have RV-8 acro time with an aft CG, then make darn sure he is aware of this, and is very careful before he hauls back on the stick the first time. If he has time in the aircraft in that configuratoin, then he's already aware, and you'll have no problem.

I am sure that you will be within the CG box - I can't imagine you'd fly outside of it - but the box is a bit "optimistic" at the aft end from a handling standpoint.
 
Here's my 2c worth:
  1. RVs are great fun for Aerobatics, -8 especially with the tandem / better vis.
  2. As above, they are easy to get wrong however, due low drag / low VA, and RV-8(A) due variable CG.
  3. You need to watch Aerobatic Weight 2 up in the 7/8, and effectively cannot do them in 4/6 2 up (legally).
  4. RV-8 (and I presume 8A?) you cannot do manoeuvres requiring full / hard rudder from the rear seat - you'll bend the rear rudder pedal rods / cannot get full rudder.
  5. Control forces are light, which is "great" for the experienced / more skillful pilot. They are not for the novice / agricultural / ham-fisted pilot, who will easily pull the wings off an RV.
  6. NB best practice during aerobatics is to wear parachutes. Getting out of the rear seat, if required, is an unanswered question. Training is one of those areas where best practice should ideally be followed.
  7. Learning from scratch needs a proper laid out syllabus covering stalling, Max Rate Turns, Spinning (Full & Incipient), Unusual Position Recoveries (Nose Hi/Lo/Ballistic) as well as the "Basic" Manoeuvres.
The RVs are weak in some of those basic areas - I would much rather teach some of these in an aircraft where the student can learn / explore / get it somewhat wrong, than an RV where a "nose low UP" is a serious problem requiring correct and immediate action, and I'd be wary of teaching / practicing Ballistic recoveries. In addition, the RV "buffet margin" is poor / narrow (in fact the RV-8 is the best due the gear leg/wing buffet, I suspect better than the 8A as well), so hard to get a feel for the buffet. And of course, please ensure there is a CB easily pulled to kill any nagging stall warner ;)

We designed our RV-8 so you could do aerobatics from the back - it essentially requires that the rear seater can see clearly (preferably analogue) 'g' / ASI / Altimeter from the back, without having to peer round the front seater too much.

I do/have done a lot of teaching aerobatics (RAF - Jet Provost), post RAF in Bulldogs, Fireflies, Extras, JPs, RVs of course, and as Paul says, for someone who has never done any aerobatics, I'd recommend doing a proper intro course on a more appropriate type. It would then be quick to convert that knowledge to the RV in 1 or 2 flights.

In the UK, each RV needs a Spin/Aerobatics Test Flight Schedule with an appropriately approved pilot (1 flight usually suffices although many do 2 in the RV-8, first solo, then dual) before being cleared. Link here Schedule - might be worth a review, and include in Section 5 the rear seat(er) if you intend to give/receive instruction in an RV-8(A).

Andy
RV-8 G-HILZ
RV-8tors
 
Kevin Horton said:
This seems like an unusually forward empty CG. Are you 100% sure of your new numbers (i.e. accurate scales, aircraft well leveled, no math errors, etc)? Which engine and prop does your aircraft have? Where is the battery mounted? Does the aircraft have an inverted oil system?
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Not an empty CG; the gentleman refers to his own 170 lbs and 40 lbs of baggage compartment ballast.

With those inputs, my own spreadsheet says 80.1"....a 390 w/ extra lbs in cowl and cooling mods, a BA Hartzell, rear PC680, and Grove legs. I'll venture he has an angle valve, a metal prop, and steel gear legs......but so do you, which is odd. What sort of CG do you calculate for C-GNHK when loaded as above? Assume 38 gallons for apples to apples.
 
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DanH said:
Not an empty CG; the gentleman refers to his own 170 lbs and 40 lbs of baggage compartment ballast.

With those inputs, my own spreadsheet says 80.1"....a 390 w/ extra lbs in cowl and cooling mods, a BA Hartzell, rear PC680, and Grove legs. I'll venture he has an angle valve, a metal prop, and steel gear legs......but so do you, which is odd. What sort of CG do you calculate for C-GNHK when loaded as above? Assume 38 gallons for apples to apples.
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My aircraft has an empty weight and CG of 1194 lb & 78.4", according to the recently calibrated scales. The CG would be 81.5" with 38 USG of fuel, a 170 lb pilot and 40 lb in the middle of the aft baggage compartment floor. If I have full fuel, a 170 lb pilot and nothing in the aft baggage I get 80.1".

My aircraft has an IO-360-A1B6, with an aerobatic MT prop that weighs almost exactly the same as the original metal Hartzell (the counterweights at each blade root weigh 6 lb each). I've got the stock steel gear legs, and inverted oil system and a rear-mounted PC 680.
 
Weight and balance for my RV8A

I hadn't intended to extend the thread in this direction, but as long as it's gone there, here is what I have done:

I was concerned that I could have erroneus Weight and Balance data, so I re-weighed the airpland last annual.

The empty weight comes in at 1,117 lb. and cg of 75.35. The aircraft was leveled to within 0.1 deg with a digital level on the copkit rails. Plumb lines were dropped from the leading edges of the wings and a laser was used for data lines. I'm quite confident of my measurements.

I have a superior O-360 A1A with a fixed pitch Sensenich. However, I also have the larger Oddysey battery on the firewall and the ELT on the forward floor just aft of the firewall. In addition, I have a rather complete panel, including GNS430, GTX XPDR, dual Dynon D10s with HS34, SL40, GPS496, Garmin Intercom, steam gauges for AS, VSI, ALT, AH, and a cooling fan for the stack.

The 40 lb of ballast is located as far back on the rear baggage floor bolted to the floor angles.

With my 170 lbs and 40 gal, the weight is 1567 and cg of 79.65. It flies very well under these conditions, with ehough trim available for easy landings.

When I have a large passenger, I just remove the ballast. It takes me less than 5 minutes.

Thanks to all for the input,

Rafael
 
Kevin Horton said:
If I have full fuel, a 170 lb pilot and nothing in the aft baggage I get 80.1"..
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Interesting. Sounds like we're twins, CG wise. (EDIT--whoops, no we're not. Kevin's CG is more desirable, about 1.4" rearward of mine, apples to apples. My new battery will make the difference about 1.1") I'm lighter at 1167 empty vs 1194, but you've got inverted systems and more panel.

Actually I just replaced the battery with a PC925 and have not yet updated the W&B. CG will move rearward 0.5" and empty goes up 1177.5 lbs.

With my 170 lbs and 40 gal, the weight is 1567 and cg of 79.65.
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Rafe, why not consider moving a few things? It's a shame to carry 40 lbs of ballast when you could move the battery to under-the-shelf and the ELT to the stabilizer deck. With ballast you're only 20 lbs lighter than my 390- powered -8......most of the weight and none of the power.
 
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Shifting battery, etc.

Dan,

I do not have an inverted system.

I like the battery on the firewall from an electrical standpoint. Also, moving it back would also entail heavy cables and the wiring is not trivial. In my mind, not worth the effort. I might move the elt, but this would have little effect.

The extra 40 lbs are not a real factor, since they are easily removed when not needed.

Take care,

Rafael

RV8A flying
RV12 working on the wings.
 
Disagree

A light RV is a joy and feels like a different airplane from one thats weighed down with ballast, fuel, etc...



The rear battery really helps. You only need to run a 4 ga starter cable and 8 or 10 ga main buss line. Ground to the airframe (it really works well). Definately worth the effort.

I'm at 1120 empty. IO-360 (parallel valve) with Hartszell BA prop and Vans steel gear.


woodsideraff said:
Dan,

The extra 40 lbs are not a real factor, since they are easily removed when not needed.
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No way would I do initial aerobatic training in an RV. You need an airplane that cannot break when you screw up. No way would I intentionally get in an inverted spin with 2 people in an RV either. Spins are day 1 of aerobatic training so the RV is out.

Get training in something like an Extra 300. If you limit the stick travel in the Extra is handles very similar to an RV and the sight picture is almost identical when in the air.
 
Sid Lambert said:
No way would I do initial aerobatic training in an RV. You need an airplane that cannot break when you screw up. No way would I intentionally get in an inverted spin with 2 people in an RV either. Spins are day 1 of aerobatic training so the RV is out.

Get training in something like an Extra 300. If you limit the stick travel in the Extra is handles very similar to an RV and the sight picture is almost identical when in the air.
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Regardless of the type of plane used, it is the instructor's job to keep the airplane within its operating limitations regardless of whether or not the student "screws up", which of course will happen early on. If the instructor cannot do this, then he/she is not qualified to be giving acro dual in any airplane, RV or otherwise. That the student can screw up doesn't mean initial acro instruction should only be given in +/-10G airplanes (Extra 300). Initial training in an RV could be safe, but the instructor should be experienced in RV-specific acro instruction. Don't even consider flying with someone who is not.

But I agree that initial basic instruction would be better acomplished in a different aircraft, but I disagree about the type. The Extra 300 is a terrible trainer. It rolls way too fast, has no aileron feel, and is not a great airplane to teach energy management, since it's not much of an issue in this plane.

A Decathlon is generally regarded as the best basic aerobatic trainer, and much more closely resembles the handling characteristics of an RV. It will better impart sublety of technique, since it doesn't "blast" through maneuvers like an Extra will. It does everything slow enough to allow a new acro student to process what's going on. Fundamental rudder skills will also be better taught in a Decathlon. It's kinda like the difference between teaching basic rudder usage for coordinated turns in a Champ vs. a Learjet. :)

The Extra 300 may slightly more closely resemble the airspeeds seen in an RV, but that's just numbers on a clock - not at the core of what's important in an aerobatic trainer.
 
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Have done a little training with Dave Kicklighter of Southeast Aero in St. Augustine. Just clicked on the "IAC Instructors Link" early in this thread and they list in their offering,,,,"RV Aerobatics". Seem to be super folks and it's a blast to fly the Extra 300. Just a walk thru their hanger is like a visit to "Toy Land"...........................

David Kicklighter. Phone: 904-753-6157

"quote"
Courses:Tailwheel endorsement, Stall/spin recovery, Unusual attitude/upset training, Recreational aerobatics, Competition aerobatics, Pitts checkout, RV aerobatics
 
Where in the heck have you been, Tim?

The last time I saw you was at Jekyll. Speaking of which; we'll be there next Sunday at 11:00 a.m. for brunch at the Jekyll Island club. How 'bout meet us there.

Best,
 
pierre smith said:
The last time I saw you was at Jekyll. Speaking of which; we'll be there next Sunday at 11:00 a.m. for brunch at the Jekyll Island club. How 'bout meet us there.

Best,
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Hey Pierre,

I sure did enjoy meeting all ya'll! I've been busy trying to stay one step ahead of this economy, and working on my empennage, done! Wings will ship this Tuesday! Next Sunday sounds great, we'll try to make it!

Tim
 
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