B

bryanrene

Active Member
I have a rv4 which I really enjoy flying. I often hear "if you want to do serious aerobatics, get a pitts (or some other brand)." Would a pitts/laser be a good plane for $100 hamburger runs, go out and fly the river, fly 2 hours to visit a kid, etc. in addition to sportsman aerobatics? If not, what is it that is different than an rv? I assume no dihedral so not as much stability, but there must be something more.

2nd question: although it will not score well due to difficulty staying in the box, do you feel it is more dangerous to do sportsman aerobatics in a rv than a dedicated aerobatic plane?

I think I want to compete a little and I can buy a pitts for the same or less than the rv4, but I hate to give up the "fun" flights just to score better at a few contests. Could a laser, one design, or pitts provide both?
 
Why not try the RV-4? Get the appropriate instruction, get the plane up to snuff, dual belt etc. and try it. My 7 is set up for acro, I got the instruction, thank you Chandler Air, and I think the RV's are good acro planes, better than something like a Decathlon IMHO. Disclaimer: while I do fly lots of inverted and negative g, I don't fly contests. Maybe someone who does will chime in here.
 
The RV is not a good serious aerobatic aircraft e.g. from competitions. Principally:
  1. It does not have a symmetric wing section
  2. It does not have enough "drag"
  3. It's spin characteristics are a bit variable - not unsafe, but difficult to get entry/exit clean / crisp enough to satisfy the blind and deaf ones who judge you :eek:
  4. It flies best "lightweight", and the inverted oil system / C/S [aerobatic] prop etc. the Aerobatics demand counter this.
If your aim is to enjoy yourself at Sportsman, and not worry too much about winning, the RV-4, set up correctly should be fine. If you want to win, or go beyond Sportsman, I'd suggest something else (Pitts, One Design etc.).

The specialist aeroplane will be poor at everything else (comfort, speed, economy, touring). If you want a "good all rounder", nothing beats an RV ;)

I did one Sportsman in our RV-8 - did OK for a 1st go. However, I was awaiting a share in a One Design to come up, and did more Sportsman ('Standard' over here), and now some Intermediate. I would not compete in the RV again (it's unfair on the RV apart from anything else!)

Andy & Ellie Hill
RV-8 G-HILZ
RV8tors
 
I know a guy who has an Extra 300 and used to own a Pitts. According to him the Extra is a very nice cross country machine and fun to fly. The Pitts was only fun to fly during aerobatics. Too twitchy and required constant inputs to fly for long.

Just one data point...it's all I have to offer.
 
I have two flying aircraft in my hangar ? the Hiperbipe and the RV-8. The Hiperbipe is an aerobatic aircraft with cross country capability. The RV is the opposite - a cross country aircraft with aerobatic capability. If I?m going long distance, the RV is the weapon of choice, but if I want to set my hair on fire doing acro, the RV sits. There is no comparison between the two when it comes to pure fun ? the RV is like a truck after flying the HB.

If you are limited to one aircraft, than your primary mission should dictate your choice. Decide which capability is the most important to you, and find the airplane that fits that mission. If you want thoroughbred performance, fly one. RV?s are fantastic ?sport? airplanes, but there really is no way to make a champion out of a mutt. Go fly a few different airplanes for yourself ? you?ll see.
 
I flew my plans built Pitts S1S for 25 years, and it was a real blast for aerobatics. Not much good for anything else though. Extremely noisy, even with a good ANR headset. Poor range and speed for x-country, twitchy, only enough room for a parachute & credit card, no heat, inadequate trim, etc. Poor visibility on the ground. I made one x-country flight, and vowed never again. If you want a multi-purpose airplane, it is not a Pitts.

Jim Berry
RV-10
 
I fly competition acro and would suggest buying the plane you want to FLY rather than a plane you think you think you might want to compete in. Even if you compete, and unless you really want to fly a long way to contests, you probably wouldn't fly more than two a year. You need a plane that you'll also really want to fly the other 48 or so weekends out of the year.

I think you should think of contests as something you also HAPPEN to be able to do with your airplane, and not your primary goal. Competition is not for everyone, and most folks are not that serious about it. And especially since you haven't gotten involved yet, you might be putting the cart before the horse a bit. And BTW, RV's will do just fine up to Sportsman (even w/o inverted systems), and they can stay in the box. Actually they'd do fine in Intermediate too, if you have inverted systems and don't mind snapping it. Staying in the box is a skill/experience issue, not an aircraft issue. If you end up serious about competition, and gain the skill/desire to move to the higher categories, you can upgrade. Since you don't really know exactly what you want, and because your interests can (and likely will) change over time, don't worry right now about what you think you might want later. Just buy what you want now. And as far as competition goes, many folks start out with lower-performing airplanes like a Decathlon, and then upgrade to Pitts/Extra types as they progress.

RV's are the best all-around airplanes, and you'd be giving up quite a bit with a purpose-built acro mount. And I would rather have an RV-4 with inverted systems than a Super Decathlon. I happen to have a Pitts because I've wanted a Pitts all my life. It also happens to be an airplane suitable for competition, so I do. The Pitts is not the best airplane for just "fartin' around" flying. Visibility is bad and it's not very comfortable...though the comfort issue depends on your size and how the plane is setup. I don't think they're any louder inside than a non-insulated RV. But they are fun to throw around, even if you don't have serious acro interests.

Are you getting bored with acro in your RV-4? If you don't have inverted systems, and want to do more than positive G rolls, spins, loops, and hammerheads, then you might be ready for a more purpose-built plane to expand your skills and find new challenges.
 
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Hi Bryan,
You are getting some good advice hear already; I'll simply add my experience. I am building a Harmon Rocket; got impatient and bought a Super Decathlon to fly during the build. I didn't set out to purchase an aerobatic airplane; I simply found a very nice low time taildragger with IO-360 and constant-speed-prop (these were my original criteria). My wife and I have enjoyed many many cross-country flights and lots of touring in the Decathlon. My RV buddies are always surprised at how quickly I catch-up to them on long flights; it really isn't that slow. I would say it's major drawback is its lack of useful load; so we have learned to pack light. I also have been learning acro in it and competing. From everyone I have talked with and from my limited vantage point; the Decathlon is an excellent airplane to learn and grow in aerobatics. I've already extolled its travelling virtues. I also think now that learning and becoming comfortable with acro is a very very good thing to do as a pilot. Once you get to that point you will know what I mean. Finally, yes, I am looking forward to finishing the Rocket for an even larger radius of fun in the touring mode - and to optimize that mission statement it will not have any acro-related gear. I didn't answer your question directly but hope the input helps.
 
thanks...

for the responses. I knew that the pitts would be a large compromise on fun flying but am still unsure what disadvantage a laser 200 or one design might have. monowing with equal or better hp/weight and visibility. It is a wood wing and fabric covering in places so longevity before need of a rebuild would be a disadvantage. Has anyone flown one of these types and would it be a better all around plane than a pitts...maybe not as good as a rv but still acceptable for "fun" flying?

rv4: The rv4 is fine for the aerobatics I do now. loops, rolls, cuban 8's but I am hesitant to consider snap rolls and I'm not sure how I feel about intentional spins and hammerheads. I fully expect to botch manuevers as I learn and practice them. That is one of my concerns. Do you feel that the rv is fine to screw up a hammerhead and end up in an inverted spin?
 
Bryan
Has anyone flown one of these types and would it be a better all around plane than a pitts...
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I would say the OD is better "all round" than the Pitts since:
  1. You can see out!
  2. It goes faster on less HP
  3. It beats them in Aeros Competitions :)
Of course, there are multiple flavours of Pitts, and some have 2 seats, which is a major + in an all rounder.

Interestingly, 3 of the 4 owners in the OD also have access to RVs. The short straw is drawn by the one who has to take the OD to a competition, and not an RV. But it's not that bad. Unless we are stupid enough to go with the Pitts', who trundle along at 120K and get lost because they cannot see where they are going. The OD is nearly RV speeds.

I also fly an Extra 300. The OD is a mini/cheap Extra - I would be as happy competing in the OD as an Extra, on 1/5 the capital cost, and 1/2 the fuel consumption.

RV-4 - my experience is RV-8, 4 likely a bit better:
  • Snap Rolls - keep speed low (as per Build Manual) and it's fine *
  • Erect Spins - fine, but not "easy" to get good marks for correct entry/exit
  • Hammerheads (Stall Turns) - no problems *
  • Inverted Spinning (needed here for Intermediate) - has anyone, intentionally (or not?) ever Inverted Spun an RV?

I fully expect to botch manuevers as I learn and practice them
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The RV is a poor "training" aircraft for aeros, due low stick force per 'g', too slippery and speed builds up quickly. Inadvertant spinning I would not see as an issue.

* See Airshow Link for RV-8 Avalanche (Snap Roll at top of loop) at 8:50, and 'Hammerhead' (Stall Turn) at 9:10. NB neither aircraft has inverrted oil, and one a Carb ;) RVs not shown until ~4:30

Andy
RV-8 G-HILZ
RV8tors
 
I got a Pitts S1 and an RV8 and looking at the log books 90% of the flights in the Pitts around 30 mins. I adore my pitts and have done X country in it but when I want to go somewhere, the relaxed flying style of the 8 with full autopilot and leaned out to 7GPH suits me better!

as for aeros, the pitts is pure fun and hard to bust in the air. The 8 is not so much fun at aeros and easy to bust in the air.

I would think that a lightly loaded 8 could be used in comps but as stated before, do it for fun not medals and treat it nicely.

Dave
 
Dave Stephens said:
I would think that a lightly loaded 8 could be used in comps but as stated before, do it for fun not medals and treat it nicely.
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Almost EVERYBODY flies competition for the fun (and challenge) only. But a pilot who would win in any other airplane (in the categories suitable for RVs) would win in an RV as well. ;) Lot's of folks think competition is harder on the airplane than recreational aerobatics. Doesn't have to be. It's all about learning to fly with precision, not necessarily agression.
 
An aerobatic competitor friend once told me that "competition aerobatics is a violent sport best flown by violent pilots". ;)

One look at the on board video of a Sean Tucker routine seems to confirm this. :eek:
 
Toobuilder said:
An aerobatic competitor friend once told me that "competition aerobatics is a violent sport best flown by violent pilots". ;)
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I guess you mean this as a half joke, but I strongly disagree. Being assertive and being violent or jerky are two different things. You can be smooth and assertive at the same time. The best example I can think of is Rob Bond who flies a stock Pitts S-2B in Unlimited. He flies very smoothly. He has too. If he jerks it around, he's killing energy that he needs just to make it through a sequence.

Another example - In a Yak 55 for instance, you're killing your vertical rolling capability if you just slam in full aileron. There's some rolling intertia and it adds a lot of drag before the plane gets rolling. You have to accelerate into it smoothly to get max performance. There are lots of cases where smoothness will extract better response from the airplane compared to violent jerkiness.

Doing well in competition is about round loops, stoping spins perfectly on heading, drawing perfect 45 and vertical lines, timing a perfect hammer pivot, snapping the airplane crisply with a perfect stop, doing perfect non-barreled vertical rolls with a perfect stop, preventing your points on rolls from bobbling, staying on heading, centering your rolls on a line, maintaining situational awareness, etc., etc. Not of this requires or is aided by a violent style.

Toobuilder said:
One look at the on board video of a Sean Tucker routine seems to confirm this. :eek:
Click to expand...

Sean Tucker's flying style is the polar opposite of competition acro, so I don't think I'd use that as an example. ;)
 
RV or acro bird

Bryan, I think you've gotten some great info on the issue, but I wouldn't make it a choice. I have a slightly modified RV-4 that I've used in two competitions, and I had as much fun as the pilot that won the unlimited class. I learned in a CAP 10 over 20 years ago, and the RV has very similar characteristics including the same airfoil. I wouldn't sell my RV, but might consider buying or going in partnership for a One Design next year. I think your closest IAC chapter is #24 in Dallas/Fort Worth. September 25-30 the IAC Nationals will be held in Sherman, TX and you'll see every level of competition with the best and friendliest pilots in the world.

Bill McLean
RV-4 Slider
Rather be Upside Down
 
Hope to be there

Bill and everyone, thanks for the advice. Sounds like I can get started in the 4 and then partner up with someone for a more dedicated mount if needed.

Bill, what slight mods did you do?

What parachutes work well in the 4?

Any additional checks or problems maintenance wise, I need to be aware of?
 
competition aerobatics

Hi all, fairly new here. I don't have any time at all in RV's, but I have a lot of competition experience through the Unlimited category in a Pitts S2-B (2 seat 6 banger), Extra 230 (single seat 4 banger) and Extra 300L. Well, I only flew the 230 in Unlimited, and it struggled there.

I just ordered my RV7 expressly because I don't plan on competing with it, but I knew I would dearly miss the performance of my aerobatic rides.

I feel the RV7 will be perfect because, though I loved my Extra 300L, with two people there was enough baggage space in it for a gym bag, maybe two gym bags. The two place Pitts was even worse. About 2 hours of fuel with reserves in all of them, btw.

The RV7 also has comparable or possibly better (with the 200hp engine) cruise performance than even the 300L. Much better than the Pitts or 230. (however I will say the Extra 230 is possibly the best balanced and most fun airplane I have ever flown, it truly became a part of your body when flying)

The only thing the the aerobatic planes will do better are the aerobatics - better roll rate, faster snaps, vertical penetration, and possibly presentation. Aerobatic planes have higher drag from either biplane design, or thick symmetrical wings, so you can draw nice long vertical downlines and pull out without exceeding Vne. The RV is slicker, and in picking up speed so much quicker I imagine the downlines would have to be shorter. The lines you draw in competition are very important to how well you score (but that's another subject). I think this may be a major drawback for RV's in competition, though I can't say this from personal experience yet. I remember a few RV4's at some of the early contests I went to. I don't remember seeing very many. I don't recall seeing an RV win any contests higher than Basic category, but most of my competition was in the 90's so things may have changed since then.

So for my mission, flying cross country but not giving up most of the aerobatic performance I am used to, the RV7 is perfect. I could possibly compete with it in Basic or Sportsman, and with my experience I might be willing to try Intermediate, although I would prefer a carry through spar and steel tube fuselage structure for snaps, personally. So I will fly gentle aerobatics and enjoy getting someplace fast, in more comfort with great avionics (that's another thing - most aerobatic planes have very basic avionics, mainly to save weight. My 300L had a removable gyro panel for cross countries, when you got to the contest swap it out for the card holder.)

In short, IMHO, if you want cross country capability with some decent aerobatic performance, the RV is best on the market right now. If you want to seriously compete, start with a single seat Pitts. Cheap and fun. You will need either an Extra 300s, Sukhoi 29 0r 31, or a Zivko to win in Unlimited at the Nationals, or WAC. Probably the Sukhoi or the Zivko.

Sorry for going on so long, hope this helps!
 
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If you want the RV grin, the cross country capabilties, the speed, the economy and most important the aerobaic capabilities, Buy yourself a Giles 202 and you will also have an aircraft to race at reno if you decide commuting and acro is not enough for you! You just can,t replace this aircraft with any other. I was at the same dilema when i sold my s2b and was looking at an rv8 when i stumbled on my current giles
 
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acro mods

bryanrene said:
Bill and everyone, thanks for the advice. Sounds like I can get started in the 4 and then partner up with someone for a more dedicated mount if needed.

Bill, what slight mods did you do?

What parachutes work well in the 4?

Any additional checks or problems maintenance wise, I need to be aware of?
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Bryan,
One of the best mods my buddy Louis Impert and I made was going to flat wing tips and adding fences. Here's a picture of Louis's bird that was at Van's recent open house:
fence2.jpg
. By the way, he'll be a contender next year. The flat wing tips increase the roll rate, and the fences improve the stall speed and decrease the rotation rate in the spins. Louis uses a conventional wing sighting device for the vertical and 45 degree lines, and I use tinted tape on my canopy. There is a whole section in vansaf archieves on the best chute for the RV-4, using the search function. I have about a dozen lessons learned, and can go into detail if you e-mail me or PM

Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
 
mv031161 said:
If you want the RV grin, the cross country capabilties, the speed, the economy and most important the aerobaic capabilities, Buy yourself a Giles 202 and you will also have an aircraft to race at reno if you decide commuting and acro is not enough for you! You just can,t replace this aircraft with any other. I was at the same dilema when i sold my s2b and was looking at an rv8 when i stumbled on my current giles
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I flew the single seat Giles back in the mid nineties when Richard stopped by the Sebring contest with it. It was a screamer and rolled faster than any plane I had flown up to then. Does the 202 have enough room to put in a couple of suitcase and two people though? That's the biggest x-country problem with even the two place aerobatic birds, and why I got rid of the Extra 300L. My wife and I would have to ship our luggage everywhere if we wanted to seriously travel with it. And that's just two medium suitcases and a a couple of smaller bags.

And the new improved version of the 202 is MX2, one improvement a much better vertical stab and rudder design for snaps. I should have mentioned them as well for high level competition, I think Rob Holland is doing very well with his. Gary Ward does an amazing airshow with his. Don't know the baggage area, but I suspect it's very similar to the Extra.

Everything's a compromise, if you just want to have fun at contests in basic or Sportsman, an RV will probably be fine. But be warned, If you get bit by the competition bug like I did, you will end up with a more dedicated aerobatic bird, and a lot less in your bank account.
 
If you read IAC forums, a number of people through the years have suggested creating an aerobatic category for RV aircraft.

By creating an RV category they hope to increase participation in their events and broaden their membership, while also creating safe events tailored to the capabilities and limitations of the RV series. RVs would compete against other RVs.

They've been discussing this for years, not sure why they haven't just done it.
 
@BlueRidge, the simple answer is one of logistics. Right now I understand that it's difficult to squeeze in all the categories into a weekend aerobatic meet. Adding one more category would extend it into a Friday or Monday. How do you decide which category has to take a day off work? It would be easier to tailor the entry-levels to RV's, or offer two programs for each category... One with non-RV suitable manoeuvers removed, and one with them in place. Kind of an "alternate" program to follow.
 
BlueRidge said:
If you read IAC forums, a number of people through the years have suggested creating an aerobatic category for RV aircraft.

By creating an RV category they hope to increase participation in their events and broaden their membership, while also creating safe events tailored to the capabilities and limitations of the RV series. RVs would compete against other RVs.

They've been discussing this for years, not sure why they haven't just done it.
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Lots of reasons. First, when you start talking about a category just for RVs, you're talking about a "one design" category. Yes, as mentioned above, it's a logistical challenge to fit extra categories into the 5 that are already flown. But there are other issues.

One problem with a single "one design" category for an RV is that you have an airplane that is capable of primary to intermediate level aerobatics, and with only one category, what level of difficulty do you make it? An RV category could be similar to Primary, Sportsman, or Intermediate levels of difficulty. Unless there were separate "one design" RV categories for different skill levels, it would either exclude lots of RV pilots (who are at the beginner level), or be boring for others who have more advanced aerobatic skills.

Another reason this has not been done is that RVs are perfectly capable of flying the current Primary and Sportsman sequences, even without inverted systems, if you don't mind (and monitor) your oil loss. There is also the spin issue. Some folks are uncomfortable spinning their RV. Some say that an RV sequence should not have a spin. Yes, the small-tail RV-6 models take longer than normal to recover once fully-developed, but RVs have no spin quirks, and competition spins do not get into the fully-developed range. IMO, experience, comfort, and competence with spin recovery is a fundamental requirement for doing safe aerobatics. If you are uncomfortable or unable to recover a spin in your airplane, it would not be an unreasonable position that you might be better off avoiding the full range of basic aerobatic maneuvers altogether.

"RV-friendly" really means lack of negative G exposure. Regarding judging criteria, how do you apply precision judging criteria to what is essentially barrel rolling when any rolling component is done under positive G? Right or wong, many would feel this would compromise one of the most fundamental skills and foundations for aerobatics - the ability to precisely roll the airplane without deviating from altitude or attitude and heading.

There's also the show of interest issue, given that there are over 7,000 RV's now flying, and only about 3 per year compete across the country. And this is not due to any barriers to entry. Bottom line, you have to be a "self starter" to find your way into this sport. If you really want to do it, you'll use what you have...or modify it if you really need/want inverted systems.

With all that being said, if redesigning the IAC contest structure slightly would truly bring in significant numbers into the sport, then I'd be all for it. I'm just not sure that it really would at this point. I really don't think significant RV participation hinges on the inverted system issue. Folks compete just fine without them in the Primary and Sportsman categories. I recently looked up the percentage of all U.S.-registered inverted-system Citabrias that participated in competition acro last year. Most Citabrias don't have inverted systems, but the 7KCAB does. Of these, only 2.3% competed (6 of 266 registered). Considering the 7KCAB is well-capable of winning the current Primary and Sportsman categories, I just don't feel there would be more than a handful of non-inverted system Citabria pilots across the country who would participate only because new sequences/categories were created for non-inverted system types. I feel the same way about RVs.

So for any who are interested, don't wait for someone to make it easier for you. If you are not a self-starter, and do not have a high level of confidence in your skills, then it might be that competition acro is not for you. Or maybe it is, but you don't know it yet due to lack of training. There is something in aviation for everyone.
 
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