J

jeff beckley

Well Known Member
I am building a 7a and now have started to look for an engine. I have settled on a 0-360. Fixed pitch prop combo. I am new in the world of buying aircraft engines so bear with me.
Here is a deal I came across and I need to get some input.
A member of our flying club has a 0-360 A2F complete with accesories starter,mags,carb,60 amp alt,oil cooler. Also has a matching prop. This unit came off a 1968 Cardnal that was totaled in 1980. Log book is complete showing 1190hrs total time new. Oil changes every 25 hrs and no other repairs.
The engine has been pickeled for the last 25 years in a dry location.
The price he wants is $11000 for the engine and prop.
He has aggreed to allow my A&P to pull a jug or two to inspect for pitting and corrosion and then to dial out the crank.
I was advised that there may be an AD on the mags and I should plan on replacing the rings and laping the valves.
If anything looks bad with the cam or crank he will reduce the sales price the amount of the replacement parts.

The prop is usless to me as it is a McCauly efa 7656 and I dont think it will work on my 7A but he wants it to go with the engine.
Concidering the price is this a fair deal? what are my options for unloading the prop?
 
That sounds high for a mid-time engine that has been sitting for 25 years. If you look at it on a cost per hour basis, you'll probably find some of the new, but non-certified engines are less expensive. Beyond that, a new engine won't have dry seals, AD's that have not been complied with (i.e. the aluminum gear oil pump AD, the carb float AD, etc.), or other problems that can't be seen without doing an overhaul.
 
I agree with Kyle. After you spend 11K for that engine and useless prop, you could easily spend 7 or 8K to get it up to par. By then you could have purchased a good Lycosaurus clone that is new with a guarantee.

If you want to go used to save money, try to find a recently running engine that you can run to TBO.

JMHO

Roberta
 
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Both very good points. Take the prop out of the deal and concider that I would have no labor costs to bring it into the 20th century what would a fair price be for this engine?
 
I would think more like 6-8K would be more realistic, especially since the rings are already known to be needing replacement. New jugs may also be in order. If you can do the OH, then you might be OK when surprise parts pop up. But if you were expecting to pay 11K plus what ever it might take to ressurrect this engine, go for the kit clone and have an engine you know is as good as can be.

JMHO

Roberta
 
Do a little more research. I think you will find that there are a couple more ADs. Mainly the oil pump AD. Also you say the airplane was totaled. I'm assuming that the engine was not running. If there was a prop strike, the crankshaft is suspect.
Mel...DAR
 
You are building a new airplane, so put a new engine in it. The total price when all is considered will favor a ECI or Superior. I'd bet you wouldn't buy a new car with a used engine in it. 11K is way too much. The engine has not run in 25 years.... Be afraid...be very afraid.
 
Its a Core

The A2F begot the A2A begot the A1A. It is a 180hp fixed pitch only Dynafocal mount O360 engine, and I think it is a worth a core, but no more.

It sounds like it could be a good engine core, that is not the issue (yet). As far as alternator, it is too big and heavy. The prop is useless but you could sell it. The oil cooler may not fit or it may be fine? (it is worth a few hundred). The mags are OK but I would recommend getting electronic ignition. If you sell your used mags and they are rebuildable, they will go for a few hundred and the mag gears another $80-$100 each. However if you go with a electronic ignition, using a hall effect device to drive, you need a non-impulse mag gear. New, mag gears are a few hundred.

Roberta is correct, the best deal is a running engine that can be used as is to TBO. One source is RV'ers upgrading to bigger engines or engines that can take a constant speed prop. The good old salvage, plane flipped in wind can be a good deal, but often they are asking premium prices and you still have the unknown factor.


It has to be torn down in my opinion. Even with min parts and machine shop hours cost you are looking at say $6K-$9K (realistically) and that is if you do the labor of tear down and assembly. If everything was perfect it may be less to tear down/ build up but there is always little things and you will want and everything needs checking. Once you get it that far it is only a little more to overhaul it. Trust me, there is always something. So the $11K price is out of line, since after a tear down/inspection, a new Lyc clone would be the same or less with warranty, all new zero time.

If you pay $4K-$5k that would be more like it. However if there is a bad crank, cam, case or valves you might be back to near the cost of a new engine. Clearly the storage time is an issue and there are, as mentioned, AD's & SB's (carb, mag, oil pump) to contend with. However as an experimental you do not need to comply with AD's. In my opinion I believe in maintaining an engine close to certified configuration and latest SB, AD compliance.


Regardless of engine hours or storage time, any non-running engine is big unknown. Unless they will make some kind of guarantee or pre-inspection tear down check than you are gambling.

With that said a used engine does represent a good value and can save many thousands of dollars. However chances are the cylinders are not up to the state of the art, say chrome, which are good but not as good as the current materials used in new jugs. The accessories, carb, mags will need upgrade or replacement. Electronic ignition is the way to go for experimental and with new new engine you can purchase them out the box and save some money.

One thing to consider is you can sell parts like used mags and prop for some cash. The best place to sell is eBay and than make some post on message boards and online classifieds referencing your eBay sale. I bought a 600hr on first rebuild 180hp A1A out of an Geronimo Piper Apache. I got the firewall forward. I sold the generator, starter, exhaust, wet vacume pump, prop for a good chunk of money. However I only payed $2,500 for the whole thing in the first place. Yea I got a good deal but the crank was a question mark. It turned out to be cherry, so I lucked out. By the time I had it done, overhauled I was into it for about $10k with no problems. I was stuck with chrome cylinders, but they where good. Chrome is good, but hard to break-in, and there are better materials now as I said.

Good Luck. This may not be the one but keep looking, the dusty engine in the corner of a hanger may be a bargain, emphasis on may be. Key of course is not paying too much and getting a good one. How you do that takes work but it is worth it.

Get educated and know what is what. I would only pay $9-$10,000 if it was running and had known history and specs could be checked (compression, oil analysis and SB/AD status). It is not low time. I would offer him $4,000 cash, take it or leave it. He will not get more than say $5k max, but than there is one born every day. Remember a new engine is warrantied and this is a gamble at $4k-$5k, which is a lot of money. G
 
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I think I am going to pass this deal up after the advise of all. I did find a different deal that I like better.
IO-360 C1C 200hp 1960 hrs since factory OH in 1982
Complete with mags, starter, alt, fuel system
This engine is dissasembled and has had the crank and case yellowed taged.
this is from a very reputable builder
He will give me 3 days to ship it back if not pleased. My dime!
He wants $8900. Now if I figure the worst case I will need to figure 5 to 6k in additional parts. 14 to 15k for a 200hp IO-360 would not be a bad deal.
The bad deal is now I have to look at a constant speed prop and gov but I also have to look at the fact that all this will have a positive effect on value of my plane. Down side is the extra weight that the 200hp has on usable load.
This engine has the current logs back to the factory OH and was in service up to less than a year ago.
Does this look better?
 
2 years ago, bought almost the same deal (C1C6 out of an Arrow) for $9K. I ended up at $20K total for a super overhaul even inspite of having a good crank. This did include new cylinders ($6K out of eBay) and all components thru ECI for yellow tag. I also did all the work myself under the supervision of a very experienced exp engine builder.

You will probably end up saving a few $K, but not nearly as much as you think...any big problems with the crank or cylinders will get you to almost the cost of an new parallel valve engine. AND with a new engine, you know what you have and can set it up the way you want.

For my new 8 QB, I going new (hoping to get the 390X).

Deene.
 
Jeff, you might be caught in a mental rut where you just KNOW that buying used and then rebuilding MUST be less expensive than buying new. That is often not the case with regard to aircraft engines.

You can get a brand spanking new IO-360 from any one of several very reputable engine builders (I chose Mattituck but others may chime in with glowing recommendations for other builders) for not much over $20K. And with that, you are ending up with a "known" good (brand new) engine with a real warranty.

Before you keep looking for that "special deal", at least do yourself a favor and explore the options that we Experimental builders are so fortunate to have available to us.

Now if you come across a mid time engine out of a flying aircraft for $6000 that you can plug into the front of your RV and go fly, that's one thing. But digging up engines that have been sitting unused for decades may very well dampen your RV grin. :rolleyes:
 
The IO-360-C1C points the injection servo aft. So you will also will need some fancy machine work on the sump to get forward facing or a different forward facing sump setup.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts
are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided
responsibly and at you own risk."
 
Yes, Mahlon is right...I mean't to include that comment also. The conversion from rear (C1C..) to front servo mount is tricky or expensive. I managed to cap off the rear inlet and machine the front of the sump casting to accept a servo...but it required an adapter (I used the angled adapter from the rear mounting and ended up with the servo pointing downward. This worked fine on my BD4 cowling, but I suspect you will have problems with a RV cowling.

If you go the new sump route, count on about $1.5K for the sump (only realistically available new) and $1K for the tubes...all up about $2.5K unless you get real lucky and find a used setup somewhere.

YMMV,
Deene.
 
used engine

At one time, I purchased an O-320 B3B with inverted oil and Ellison carb. It looked to be a good engine, but had no logs, so I was going to send it to AeroSport for a teardown inspection.

I was also going to remove the oil system and replace the carb, add a spin-on oil filter adapter etc.

I estimated this was another $6K at least, less what I could get for the oil system and Ellison carb. I paid 10K for the engine, for a total of at least $16K.

Meanwhile Aerosport was selling new O320's for about $18K.

In a flash of inspiration, I bought a new Aerosport, and sold the old engine to a good home that wanted aerobatic capability. I feel a lot better doing this.

The only downside of a new engine is break-in at the same time as you are flying a new airplane. I chose the ECI cermanil cylinders which are more forgiving and Aerosport did a couple of hours of run-in at the factory.

Of course, when you buy a new engine you can't help but add extras.... I paid (a lot) for roller lifters, having money left in the 'secret airplane account'.

I did not install electronic ignition as I planned (EMAG/PMAG), but I have prewired for them as a future upgrade. One thing of note is that electronic ignitions tend to run your engine a bit hotter, and you must be even more carefull at break in time.

Vern Little
RV-9A first flight today.
 
sorry for my ignorance but I dont understand the placement of the fuel servo.
I was told by vans that this was a vertical induction intake and all I needed was to specify that when I order the finish kit. Is there a difference between vertical inductions? The C1C is listed as a model that will work.
 
Purchasing a Used Engine

Jeff,

You have to look at the engine as purchasing a core, especially if you are going to purchase one that is already disassembled from a dealer. Some people will disassemble the engine, take the good components and leave you with a slew of bad parts. Then you are faced with tremendous parts costs to get a quality engine. Also make sure that the seller will guarantee that the cases and crankshaft will be in repairable condition. Good luck with your project.
 
Buy a NEW maybe you an assemble it yourself and save some money!!!!

I bought an overhauled engine from a canidian RV7 builder that went Egggennfellner It was overhauled by a company in Texas I paid 11K for it.after 50 hours the oil pressure dropped and the teardown revealed a warped crankcase (proberly from fire) a new overhaul and 6K later it is running
fine but The 2 months of missed flying after completing the project and almost the same as an new engine was not funny!!!!

J?rn M?ller
RV8 200 hours
 
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