grubbat

grubbat

Well Known Member
With the recent tragic events that have occurred within the VAF community, I have found myself thinking about the process of sharing information among the RV community and how it is disseminated. Specifically as it pertains safety whether it be structural or otherwise. While the RV basic designs has been around for a couple of decades now, it is still relatively new and over time we will learn about potential maintenance areas through Service Bulletins from Vans on their website, through information sharing here on VAF, through word of mouth, or maybe from some other venue. Unfortunately, a primary catalyst for this is going to be more tragic events in the future involving our fellow RV friends.

So, how does this process actually work? In the certified world, the FAA will issue an AD or SB once all information is gathered, analyzed, and a determination is made. Sometimes this information takes time to release, sometimes the information is off the mark, but for the most part it has been a process that has been unchanged for several years.

Is there a better way? Can the RV community improve upon this process and be a model for the experimental side of the aircraft world? Is there a way to improve the process of sharing information and provide it in a faster more efficient manner?

It is pretty obvious that the experiential are leading the way for the latest technology side of flying. A lot of the "certified" folks just dream of being able to have the stuff the experimental have. I believe that we have an opportunity to make changes to the information sharing process that will result in a more efficient flow and possibly be a model for the whole industry.

When I say improve the process, I am not talking about speculation, pointing fingers, or so forth.

For example, you just bought a RV-9. You have to do an annual (conditional) and so where do you go for information? Of course, Van's has a list of SB. Is that all you do? What about things that are not worthy of a SB but may be something that you need to be aware of? Do you go through all the RV-9 archives? Case in point is the RV9a steps. Does folks know that those things are prone to crack? Is there a SB on that? Nope. Is it important? Maybe to someone. Is it structural? Nope. Or how about the eyebolts on the elevator? Mr Paul Dye found some things on his RV-8 this past weekend that were eye openers. Did you see his post? If not, why not? In short, things that are loose that should be tight is not good. How does this information get to you?

I am not criticizing. I am a process improvement guy by trade and I know that information sharing can be improved. Even if we can't change the time it takes NTSB to release it findings on accidents, we can improve other information.

FYI, I don't have the answers, but I know that collectively, we have an opportunity to improve and lead the industry. I love my RV. I just don't want to learn about how to maintain it the way we always have in the past. Remember, insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result....

Can we improve the process?
 
How much better can it get than this for communicating issues and floating potential corrections?! You have very good information flowing on almost a real-time basis regarding the basic facts of many of these accidents, and many non-accidents/issues, right here and on other similar boards.

As for the NTSB, sure, they have done great things and have a purpose in the big picture. But I am darn sure not waiting on their official findings to collect information presented here and using my brain to manage the risk of operating my plane.

This network of pilots and builders hearing, discussing and acting on issues is far better in quality and in timing than that provided by our current federally controlled world.

Good answers to difficult questions don't have to be complex.
 
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grubbat said:
...For example, you just bought a RV-9. You have to do an annual (conditional) and so where do you go for information? ...
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You go to Van's.

Whenever there is a service bulletin, notice, or whatever on one of their aircraft designs, they post it on their website.

Every year, while doing the condition inspection, simply look at their site and make sure you have reviewed the list.
 
Low Pass said:
How much better can it get than this for communicating issues and floating potential corrections?! You have very good information flowing on almost a real-time basis regarding the basic facts of many of these accidents, and many non-accidents/issues, right here and on other similar boards.

As for the NTSB, sure, they have done great things and have a purpose in the big picture. But I am darn sure not waiting on their official findings to collect information presented here and using my brain to manage the risk of operating my plane.

This network of pilots and builders hearing, discussing and acting on issues is far better in quality and in timing than that provided by our current federally controlled world.

Good answers to difficult questions don't have to be complex.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately a lot of RV owners, especially those non-builders who bought flying RVs, do not follow VAF to the extent you suggest....:(

As an example, we are still hearing about RV-6s that exist without the rudder pedal weld reinforcement modification mandated by Vans many years ago. When it crops up, it is usually a case of "I didn't know" not a case of willful neglect.
 
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Researching Van's site for SB is the first step. However, there are going to be items that come up that Van's may either choose not to list as a SB or the time to make it a SB may take some time. Today is a great example of folks looking for items and actually finding some things. However, you won't find these items in SB for a while.

Yes, VAF is a great resource for information and its occurring right now,.. if you read all the posts. Once this tragic news passes and some time goes by, the motivation to research all the post and read all the enormous information out there from our fellow RV owners is daunting.

Could this information sharing process be organized better? Would that improve the communication? Again, I am not criticizing. I am just using this terrible situation as a catalyst to think outside the box and improve how we find and share information.

Kevin found some things on his airplane in one post. Paul found something in his post. Another found something in another post. Nevertheless, this process will continue over the next several weeks then the intensity will diminish. One thought that I had that I would like to offer is the ongoing maintenance area. Maybe that area could have subcategories for each of the major airframe groups. Elevators, Rudders, tailwheels, wings, flaps, major structures, minor structures, and so forth. I don't know if this would work but it seems that there ought to be a way to share infomation not only for those currently reading this, but for the future RV pilots and owners and potential owners.

Again, just thinking about how to make things better in light of a very difficult past couple of weeks here.
cj
 
grubbat said:
Kevin found some things on his airplane in one post. Paul found something in his post. Another found something in another post. Nevertheless, this process will continue over the next several weeks then the intensity will diminish.
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At the risk of sounding insensitive, the items that you are referencing are all part of comprehensive maintenance. Nothing has been mentioned that should not be found during a thorough condition inspection.

We are responsible for maintaining our aircraft to the highest order. Unfortunately, it is easy to get complacent with a reliably performing aircraft and our intensity of maintenance starts to wane. It takes an accident to shake us and return us to the level of attention we should have all the time.

This is our our responsibility as aircraft owners to maintain at a high level, not Vans's.
 
Don't count on the feds or the manufacturer

......someone said that we have become a bit complacent because the design is/are well wrung out. Serious problems show up as an SB by Van's.

Just a reminder that Van's is a HUGE anomaly in the kit plane world! 99% of all the kit startups that have ever existed....are gone in 3-5 years. ( W.A.G!)

I think it's a great idea to create an archive and reference base of some type, especially for 'maintenance items' that never become official SB's.
VAF is great, but participation is far from 100%.

Eventually, pretty much all A-B planes end up being owned by someone other than the builder...and it becomes even more important.
Yes, an A&P should catch all the issues at annual or 100 hour time, but this is not the norm; I personally do my own inspections unless I am tackling a major change ( engine, avionics, etc.) and a good chunk of owners are the same. Not lazy or stoopid, just typical pilots.
 
Builder suggested service bulletins

Sam is correct about comprehensive maintenance. The key word comprehensive.
You can?t have comprehensive maintenance without updating you knowledge base.
There are model specific issues that could be addressed with a (BSSB) builder suggested service bulletin.
Bulletins could then be rated +1 if it?s a good idea if it doesn't get an x number of +1?s delete it
It is also important we have builder suggested service bulletins because we all my use a different products in our systems.
A good example would be the G switch that was added to the smoke system. That would be a great (BSSB) that is specific to our Van?s Aircraft but not a Van?s option.
NASCAR stepped up their game we can to.
 
Exactly what i was thinging about. You guys have it spot on.

I was a bit apprehensive about posting because I didnt know if I could describe the process change ideas without ticking folks off. I agree with Sam and I am a ~25yr A&P guy who is comfortable with the present Way but at the same time I think the RV folks are capable of taking the experiential information process up a notch and possibly be the benchmark for general aviation, both experimental and certified.

Those who are reading, please feel free to share ideas. I would be very interested to see what the collective team of the RV nation can come up.

At some point, maybe some of the ideas will be such that those folks in position to facilitate such changes may deem it worthwhile to incorporate some of them. If so, we all win.
Cj
 
One of the major problems with putting out AD like letters on homebuilts, even RV's is that each one is built slightly differently.

For example, although Van's states rather clearly in the directions that all the holes are to be match drilled and deburred, not everyone does that. Some builders have gone right to dimple.

Let us say that the FAA/NTSB investigates five accidents and just by chance, all five builders didn't match drill and deburr the holes prior to dimpling. Now the investigation happens to find a number of stress cracks around some rivets, they can only assume the builder followed the instructions to the letter and issues a recommendation based on their findings.

If we were dealing with factory built planes, those findings might hold up but since each and everyone of our planes are built to a different standard, any findings/suggestions may not hold up across the entire fleet.
 
terrific idea

I would be very grateful for a safety/maintenance section specifically for "easily/often overlooked inspection items". We've already heard from experienced IAs that "I find lots of x...." where x = something scary like loose jam nuts or missing wing bolts or lots of other things.

We've also seen tons of interest in the sample annual inspection checklists.
We are all fallible. Anything that helps the inexperienced or complacent (we are/were all in inexperienced at one point and are all susceptible to complacency) will help the safety record. Leveraging others' experience is how we gain without pain.

And just to add +1: thanks for the heads up on the jam nuts...I found one loose on the inboard pilot's side elevator. I tightened it up and because I don't know why it came loose, I used a couple of drops of wicking Loctite on each, where the thread enters the jam nut.

I have already added a separate line item to my condition inspection checklist. Now, rather than saying to inspect attach points, jam nuts are a separate line item.
 
Best of the Best

grubbat said:
Researching Van's site for SB is the first step. However, there are going to be items that come up that Van's may either choose not to list as a SB or the time to make it a SB may take some time. Today is a great example of folks looking for items and actually finding some things. However, you won't find these items in SB for a while.

Yes, VAF is a great resource for information and its occurring right now,.. if you read all the posts. Once this tragic news passes and some time goes by, the motivation to research all the post and read all the enormous information out there from our fellow RV owners is daunting.

Could this information sharing process be organized better? Would that improve the communication? Again, I am not criticizing. I am just using this terrible situation as a catalyst to think outside the box and improve how we find and share information.

Kevin found some things on his airplane in one post. Paul found something in his post. Another found something in another post. Nevertheless, this process will continue over the next several weeks then the intensity will diminish. One thought that I had that I would like to offer is the ongoing maintenance area. Maybe that area could have subcategories for each of the major airframe groups. Elevators, Rudders, tailwheels, wings, flaps, major structures, minor structures, and so forth. I don't know if this would work but it seems that there ought to be a way to share infomation not only for those currently reading this, but for the future RV pilots and owners and potential owners.

Again, just thinking about how to make things better in light of a very difficult past couple of weeks here.
cj
Click to expand...

A while back, I posted a suggestion and got nowhere..so I will give it one more shot. VAF is a fabulous resource, but there are now SO MANY posts and posters, finding information on certain topics can be overwhelming.

I would like to suggest (again) that the moderators/leaders of this forum pick out the "top 5" posts on a variety of subjects..some type of "tag" could be placed on the post indicating it as a "best choice" post on a particular topic..I like the ones with pictures, or the ones from certain posters that have expertise or considerable experience in certain areas...so the less experienced people (such as myself) can cut through the fluff and get to the Best of the Best. I realize this would be a lot of work for the moderators, but it would be a great service to the forum..and to the VAF community.

The best posts could be replaced as needed and as information changes. I have complete faith in the moderators to judge the quality of "best posts". Many people simply do not have the time to keep up with this ever growing forum, unfortunately. Yes, its up to each of us to keep abreast of the latest info, but I feel strongly that this would be a step in the right direction. Thanks.
 
Aircraft structures are divided up kinda like the dewy decimal systems. We could use the same system. It's been a while since I did component maint but there's no reason the RV couldn't be divided up when making a post. For example, if someone found a crack in a spar on a control surface in the tail group, then those could checked off somehow prior to making the comment, posting the pic, and clicking the submit reply button. Just like the big boys.
 
This is really disappointing that so many exp-ab builders/pilots are basically wishing for a certified aircraft maintenance process. Sorry, but you just don't get it. Wish for a centralized/federal system, and we may just get it. Think, research, ask, correct. This is how I built and maintain my exp-ab plane.
 
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Low Pass said:
This is really disappointing that so many exp-ab builders/pilots are basically wishing for a certified aircraft maintenance process. Sorry, but you just don't get it. Wish for a centralized/federal system, and we may just get it. Think, research, ask, correct. This is how I built and maintain my exp-ab plane.
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Low,

I don't take it that way at all. I see this as a...

"hey-I-found-this-on-my-plane-you-should-check-it-too"

thing.
 
Arlen said:
Low,

I don't take it that way at all. I see this as a...

"hey-I-found-this-on-my-plane-you-should-check-it-too"

thing.
Click to expand...
Well, maybe I read it wrong. Done that before. But I am sensitive to people wanting to replicate or adopt the FAA maintenance/AD process. I've heard it before and continue to hear it. When I built my plane, and for several years after while flying, no discussion board existed to discuss and collect info. I did it by email, talking to others with RVs and homebuilts, talking to old A&Ps, talking to experienced pilots - and thinking. Things improve and I'm all about that. Just very leery of moving toward the FAA maint/AD world.

Thanks for your comment!
 
Low Pass said:
This is really disappointing that so many exp-ab builders/pilots are basically wishing for a certified aircraft maintenance process. Sorry, but you just don't get it. Wish for a centralized/federal system, and we may just get it. Think, research, ask, correct. This is how I built and maintain my exp-ab plane.
Click to expand...

You missed the point. There is nothing disappointing about improving information flow. I am not advocating a certified maint process. However, there has to be a better way to flow information than what we currently have.
 
The Data Exists!

OK, I agree with the concept of a centralized database that gathers the collective experience of thousands of RV builders/owners/pilots and makes those lessons-learned available to everyone. It's a good idea, and something that would make the RV world the envy of the rest of the experimental aviation community.

The best thing is - the data already exists! The VAF forums have existed in their current form since early 2005, and the amount of raw information in the archives on these airplanes is astounding. It has been collected - it just has to be organized. So.....if you really want to have something like this, you don't need to start now with people submitting their ideas. (In fact, that would be counter-productive, since many of the experienced contributors have gotten bored answering the same question over and over, and won't contribute again.) What you need to do is mine the existing database.

Yup - sounds like a daunting task - and it is. But if you really want an organized database, you already have it half done - just organize it. You need a dedicated person or team and a plan - that's all. (Grad students come to mind....)

In my previous job, I saw many, many efforts to collect "Lessons learned" databases. The ones that worked best were done by mining existing data, not by telling folks "OK, contribute your ideas". Both methods SHOULD work - but only one does, and it is not a technical problem, is is a sociology problem.

So if you really want this - build it. It's not a bad idea. Just do it.
 
Arlen said:
Low,

I don't take it that way at all. I see this as a...

"hey-I-found-this-on-my-plane-you-should-check-it-too"

thing.
Click to expand...
I thought that is what we are currently doing on this forum and specifically on these latest threads. :)

It seems to me some of these posted thoughts are being driven by the idea that there are RV flyers not following the VAF forums or that one is too busy to spend the time following the VAF forum for these kinds of threads. I am having a difficult time seeing how that aspect of the problem would change if there were some other different mechanism we would attempt to deploy in order to disseminate this important information. This sounds like the proverbial "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink" idea.

Having someone else do the work of flagging something that YOU think is important is always going to be lacking no matter what format it is created in. I have to be the one raising the flag for my needs! Not you! Or anyone else! And what that means to me is that I have to be diligent about THINKING through these kinds of issues. I cannot shortcut the process of evaluating what components, designs, techniques, systems, etc. are safe for my airplane by having someone else tell me what they think I should deem as important.

I know too many pilots who have always flown certificated GA aircraft who simply "kick the tires and light the fires" when it comes to flying their airplane. I believe they develop that attitude based on the fact that the FAA regs dictate that they are not allowed to do maintenance or repairs on their own airplane. Thus they turn those responsibilities over to an IA/A&P to tell them whether things are good to go or not and simply do not concern themselves with whether the airplane truly is safe.

Those with this mindset should be reminded that:
JUST BECAUSE AN AIRPLANE MAY BE LOGGED AS AIRWORTHY DOES NOT MEAN IT IS SAFE!

Forgive me for this thought, but, the above behavior sounds very much like what is being proposed for us here -- That we rely on someone else to tell us, in some new, as yet undefined format, what we should be doing to keep ourselves safe in our airplanes.

Making sure things are safe around me is my job. In fact it is my job 24/7 no matter what I am doing. That goes for when I am driving down the highway next to other drivers texting or talking on the phone, or when I am getting into my airplane to fly off into the sunset. Safety is my responsibility!

Following safety threads on VAF, reading bulletins from VAN's, reading AOPA, EAA, Pilots of America forums or any others I can find that may discuss the safety needs I should pay attention to, talking to fellow RV owners/pilots, talking to trusted mechanics, or making sure I pay attention to stories in the multiple flying magazines I monthly receive are all mechanisms I use to try to keep myself informed on safety issues. Keeping my mind in the game by doing so IS MY RESPONSIBILITY.

Creating a new format for someone to follow will only add to the existing mechanisms. If one chooses not to subscribe to that new format they will miss the point just as surly as those who have currently chosen not to subscribe to this VAF format are missing the point now.

Live Long and Prosper! By doing everything in your power to stay safe!
 
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Sam's post (#6) is dead on. The responsibility is with each of us and we - not the lack of a "system" - are the primary failure. This and other sites are a wealth of valuable information, but there are questions posted here every day that make my A&P head spin. These are questions that could easily be answered with a quick trip through 43.13 or any number of other basic, fundamental books, yet people still want to be spoon fed. It is the unwillingness to learn that is the problem.

I'm not going to speculate on the recent tragedy, but I can say with a fair amount of certainty that RV's do not come apart in midair without something seriously wrong. I?d go further to say that Tony either missed some previously existing defect or was the once in a million victim of something like a bird strike. Neither one of these circumstances will be fixed by any ?system? or data repository as long as humans have the freedom to ignore it.

We in the homebuilt world have great freedom ? but as they say, that brings great responsibility. IMHO, we do not even touch the resources that exist today, so adding more info just adds another opportunity for people to ignore.
 
existing database

Building a database based on the existing contributions from 2005 sounds great.
I wished I had the capability or time to learn to undertake that.

By the way, I wouldn't want to propose anything that takes the responsibility from us to ensure our planes are airworthy. Having access to better and more efficient flow of information shouldn't hinder our responsibility, but rather, hopefully help it.
 
grubbat said:
... Having access to better and more efficient flow of information shouldn't hinder our responsibility, but rather, hopefully help it.
Click to expand...

No doubt it would. My point is simply that we have GREAT information today - and still fail to take responsibility to learn it. Lack of information is not the root cause. Lack of action is.
 
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