Ironflight

Ironflight

VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Mentor
Years ago, I remember seeing a film in a management training seminar called "The One Hour House". The purpose of this film was to show what could be done with incredible management and organizational skills - and unlimited manpower and budget! What they did was literally build a single-family tract home, from bare dirt to move-in ready in just one hour - including pouring the slab (with VERY fast-setting concrete). I am sure there are some others out there that have seen it. The point, of course, is that if you have everything organized and planned out so that there was no wasted time, and had as much parallel work going on as possible, that the actual time to build the house could be made incredibly short. The prep and practice time, of course, was incredible, and if I remember correctly, they practiced and rehearsed with several homes before making the actual attempt at an hour. Even if you aren't interested in the management angle, anyone who prowls these forums would be intrigued at the building process itself!

OK, so what is this post doing on an RV forum? Well, this is just a thought experiemnt....lets's say you were to do the same thing with an RV, starting with a truck loaded with a slow-build, match-drilled -8 and every single component that you needed to finish it was on hand. You also had an unlimited number of experienced builders available, and enough tools so that no one would have to slow down for a moment. There is probably a practical maximum number of people before they start getting in each other's way, but if you have sub-assembly areas, it could go like lightning....

How fast do you think we could build the airplane? What would be the limiting factor? Fiberglass curing time? And do you think we could ever talk Van's into donating the materials so that a group could do something like this at, let's say....Oshkosh?

Or, maybe it's been done before....and I don't know it!

Discussion?
 
I have gotta see that home building film!!! As for the RV speed building thing, I'm definitely the wrong guy to ask. :(
 
I think you could start at the beginning of OSH or Sun-n-Fun and raffle it off at the end. They build three planes in two days on Junkyard Wars. I think you could easily build an 8 in five or six days. The proceeds could go to some charity or Young Eagles.
 
Glasair Sportsman

Paul - interesting idea.

From reading build reports (Kitplanes?) - I believe that this is how the "Two weeks to taxi" program works for the Glasair Sportsman. They have one guy working with you while the other guy lays everything out or preps for the next move. As I understand - you just bounce from one "helper" to the next - building your plane.

With their builder assist program, the Lightning also sounds like it is a VERY fast build like the Glasair.

Sounds like fun... fast, but expensive! :eek:

You'd need a strong - "Ace Builder"/leader to orchestrate the kind of build you are proposing.
 
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5 experienced RV builders (1-6, 3-7's and an 8 along with several other homebuilts) are discussing building a 10. We think we can do it in about 6 months. We think 1 man on the empanage, 2 on the wings and 2 on the fuse working concurrently could knock it out in short order. We have a 2 bay shop and all the tools for 3 teams.

Anyone want a 10 built, we'll do 2 at once if you supply both kits, we would keep the second kit of course. :D

Jekyll
 
I believe I have heard of a 6 being built in 68 or so days. I bet your idea of doing it with unlimited labor...you could do it in a day or two. If you had experienced builders who have done it before, all the necessary tools and equiptment on hand, and a very basic build (day vfr, steam gauges, FP prop, carb and mags, etc) lets call it 1500 hours. Thats only 15 hours per person for a 100 person team.
 
A week

Paul,
Since Van claims that it takes between 500-800 manhours for a quickbuild, I figured ten experienced builders working together could do it in 600 manhours. That's ten hours a day for six days. Yep, it could be built in the one Oshkosh week ;)

A slow build, on the other hand, would take three weeks or more with ten guys. I figure that ten guys wouldn't get in each others' way.

Regards,
 
Wil Ramsey (now deceased) with the help of Jay Pratt built a -8AQB in 54 days several years back. I believe Wil worked on it 7 days a week 10 hours a day (the emp was already done).

b,
d



G-force said:
I believe I have heard of a 6 being built in 68 or so days. ...snip.
Click to expand...
 
I'm imagining something that looks like one of Rudi's videos, but with about a hundred people swarming around it! :rolleyes:

I'm going to search for that house video - one of the amazing things was that the place was built "to code", and the inspectors said it wasn't slap-dash and shoddy - that was part of the message - you could do things efficiently and still have a good product....

Paul
 
Ironflight said:
......if you have everything organized and planned out so that there was no wasted time, and had as much parallel work going on as possible, that the actual time to build.......could be made incredibly short..... How fast do you think we could build the airplane?
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Anything is possible. To illustrate the possibilities, the wartime plant at Willow Run had an assembly line that was a mile long. At the peak of it's production, it was producing one B-24 Liberator an hour.

Corrections are entirely in order if I'm wrong......didn't the EAA discontinue the past practice of (the EAA or someone else) actually building an airplane from start to finish during AirVenture week? If so, was that the result of legal or other concerns?

Be that as it may, whether one person or a 100 actually builds the airplane, only one Repairman's Certificate can be issued for it. It would be an exercise in democracy to determine whom among the group would actually have the certificate awarded in his (or her) name. :p

assembly20lines20at20fozf7.jpg


This is crazy, I know......I have day-dreamed about a sort of "national emergency" in which the government seized all partially completed experimental kits worthy of being pressed in wartime service to serve in one role or another. This being an exercise in government largess and all...money being no object...the kits are transported to a central location and the very best people are hired to complete them. How quickly would those kits get put together and flying? :eek:

Hey, don't laugh. Some people play fantasy football! :D
 
pierre smith said:
Paul,
Since Van claims that it takes between 500-800 manhours for a quickbuild, I figured ten experienced builders working together could do it in 600 manhours. That's ten hours a day for six days. Yep, it could be built in the one Oshkosh week ;)

A slow build, on the other hand, would take three weeks or more with ten guys. I figure that ten guys wouldn't get in each others' way.

Regards,
Click to expand...
I suppose 500 people working at the same time could finish it in 1 hour? :)
 
I am reminded of something often quoted to our customers when they attempt to throw money at software development to cut the schedule:

"Just because 1 woman can have a baby in 9 months, doesn't mean 9 women can have a baby in 1 month."

I believe that with efficiency and money you can parallel a lot of the processes, but at some point you're going to run into things that have to be done sequentially and that will be the limiting factor.

PJ
RV-10 #40032
 
I was joking around PJ.. hahaha... I just had to post it because it reminded me of the way we do things around here at work.. "We're behind schedule so let's throw more resources on the project!".
 
PJSeipel said:
.....but at some point you're going to run into things that have to be done sequentially and that will be the limiting factor.....PJ
RV-10 #40032
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There is a term for that. It is called CRITICAL PATH. To violate the critical path is to assure partial dissassembly down the road.
 
Actually, the world record homebuilding speed is held by an Alabama chapter of Habitat for Humanity where a single family home was completed in 3.5 hours. It required something like 14 months of planning to pull off.

http://www.habitat.org/newsroom/2002archive/insitedoc002185.aspx

I could actually see the aircraft reapplication of this being easier since for the most part, there is a well defined (for the most part) set of instructions - easily divisible and allocatable. But I can see it now... "cleco pliers, where are my cleco pliers?!" ( I'll be part of the tool management team ) :D
 
Aerocomp......

Did something like this at Oshkosh about 8 years ago. They built a CA-6 from a "QB" in about 10-12 days as I recall. Not a bad accomplishment considering the then primitive nature of the kit. There used to be a piece on their website about it, not sure if it is still there.
 
How about an RV-12 in 12 hours? For tools it sounds like you just need a bunch of clecoes, also a pair of cleco pliers, and a pop rivet gun for every participant. Add a few battery drills, drill bits, wrenches and screw drivers. No priming, simple electrical system, and an EFIS/EMIS. Should be a piece of cake.
 
<APPLY GEEK STUFF HERE>

I'm in the PM business by trade and have had the same thoughts on this from a project management perspective. I always wanted to see what this kit looked like on a network diagram but haven't had the time to mess with it. That ought to give a fair idea of the parallel and dependent tasks as well as giving a rough shot at resource loading at any given time.

Jim
 
More than 10, less than 100

I think Pierre and others are onto something here. Lets say you create segments by kit, using the empennage as a sample by # of people:
2 dimpling
1 priming
2 assembling
1 "gopher"

Then by wing kit:
2 dimpling, aided by the above when empennage is dimpled.
2 priming, aided by the above when empennage is primed.
4 assembling wings, yadda, yadda.
4 assembling fuel tanks, (2 people per tank).
1 "gopher"

And so on. If these were built concurently, you may have 1200 hours amassed but could do this between 4 and 7 days. Lets say the first time it took 7-10 days and the second time 6-7 days and after doing this with a consistent team, maybe down to 4 days.
Sounds like we would have to do this at least 10 planes (and maybe with each model) :D before the effeciency sets in. Do it in a production line manner and the fuse is fitted with the empennage, immediately followed by the wings and firewall forward finalizing in the paint booth.

You can pick any color you wish as long as it is white. :cool:

Interesting thread.

Pat Garboden
Ozark, MO
Operating a working man's production line of two men, two kits 3years 4 months. :eek:
RV9-A 942WG (reserved) O-235 w/slider in the paint stage (mechanically complete)
RV9-A 942PT (reserved) O-320 w/tip-up in the finish/wiring stage
 
Gauge

Seems to me a good gauge would be the quickbuild assemblers. They should pretty much have it down to a science by now and could give numbers to the minute and rivet for wings and fuselage anyway.
 
Thats a really cool idea! I wonder if it could be sponsered and actually happen. I'll bet you plan it well enough, and get some experienced people together, you could do first taxi In 4-5 days and, and first flight in a week. Have the DAR superivise and head up the project, get someone to donate a couple hanger bays for the week, and setup the tools. I wonder if an EAA chapter would front the necessary money to make it happen?

This could really happen I'll bet.
 
Based on what I saw when they did that house (and folks, I spent lunchtime searching the net, and couldn't find the thing...), I still think that with enough dedicated talent, serious project management planning, and the necessary sponsorship, you could do it in a day or less. Unless there is some physical process (like resin curing) that is the "long pole". Ya' just gotta believe!

I'm glad y'all are enjoying the thought experiment....and you know, that idea on the RV-12 would be one heck of a way for Van's to kick start the sales program, wouldn't it!?

Paul
 
Ironflight said:
Based on what I saw when they did that house (and folks, I spent lunchtime searching the net, and couldn't find the thing...), I still think that with enough dedicated talent, serious project management planning, and the necessary sponsorship, you could do it in a day or less. Unless there is some physical process (like resin curing) that is the "long pole". Ya' just gotta believe!

I'm glad y'all are enjoying the thought experiment....and you know, that idea on the RV-12 would be one heck of a way for Van's to kick start the sales program, wouldn't it!?

Paul
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I think you're dead on here, Paul. There's no reason this can't be done in a day. The real key will be having EVERYTHING setup and ready to go. For example, no head scratching over things like where to run wires, what to prime and what not to prime, how to attach fiberglass tips, where/how to mount instruments etc etc. The only thing that will make this difficult is the proseal on the tanks but you could always just go for it, assume no leaks and fix any minor leaks as they crop up.

This is totally doable. You would need a team of about 50 people, I think. This is to do things like deburring/fluting/edge finishing/dimpling. All that must be done in parallel or you may as well give up. Just think how fast it would go, though, if:

1) you had to make no decisions along the way
2) you didn't prime anything except rattle can on the bare essentials
3) an army of helpers immediately deburred and edge finished your parts as fast as you could drill them.

You could probably knock out the whole emp in just an hour or so with everyone working in parallel with no screwups.

The only limiting factor here is the insane amount of planning, coordination and practice (i.e. $$$) it would require to get to the point you could work non-stop, 24 hours with no breaks, no questions and no screwups.

1 week? EASILY doable. A bunch of ordinary builders with a reasonable amount of planning could pull that off, I think.
 
WBS

Jim P said:
Has anyone created a list of build steps in excel? Just curious.

Jim
Click to expand...

I'm putting together a Work Breakdown Structure for my RV-9A as I move along on a slow-build. Writing each step forces me to study the plans and instructions and understand what I'm about to do next. It is also a handy place to capture ideas that I read on the forums and websites. For instance, I used Dan's site to write up the "Check-O-Way" for fitting the z-brackets to the tanks. I'm using OmniOutliner (MAC software) - don't know if it will export to Excel.

Here's a photo of a sample.


Joe Lofton
RV-9A - Wings
 
quick?

Wil Ramsey built and flew his RV 8a here in 54 days. The tail was done sans tips before we started. Wil worked 12 to 14 hours 6 days a week. I worked at least 8 each day. We had Troy Thompson doing the glass work, Vroom doing the Wiring. We did not have to learn any new tricks, his plane was equipped like the Borrowed Horse, SIMPLE.!!! I think I could do a Basic RV8 much faster. But not in a day or week. Only so many people can get in there and do all those nut plates.
Here is my guess
4 builders on the wings,, 5 days, no lights.
2 builders on emp,, 4 days
4 builders on the fuse, 18 days
Plus wireing, plumbing, canopy, baffeling, cowl, mating emp and wings,,, another month. Some things gotta wait on other tasks. It takes me 25 hours to do a fwd baggege door. The new ones are supposed to go together easer.
No way to do a RV8 QB in a week. It has to be upside down to put the gear on, several hours for me, and I have done 12.
A Month / 6 weeks ? mabe?? with lots of real help. How about all you readers come to RV Central and finish up my 8?? Free Beer after the first flight.

Thanks
 
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G-force said:
I believe I have heard of a 6 being built in 68 or so days. I bet your idea of doing it with unlimited labor...you could do it in a day or two. If you had experienced builders who have done it before, all the necessary tools and equiptment on hand, and a very basic build (day vfr, steam gauges, FP prop, carb and mags, etc) lets call it 1500 hours. Thats only 15 hours per person for a 100 person team.
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Yeah, if you're referring to the same plane, I met the builders when they arrived at Oshkosh several years ago. They had each built RVs before and were from California, as I recall.

They planned it out ahead of time, and when the truck arrived, they rolled up their sleeves and went to work -- 16-18 hours/day, 7 days a week.

"You're not married, evidently," I joked.

He said that they were indeed married, but that they had told their wives that they'd see them when the project was done.

As I recall the story, they primed all of the parts FIRST, then drilled and deburred things.

The plane looked nice, but I don't recall ever seeing them at Oshkosh again.
 
1 week? EASILY doable. A bunch of ordinary builders with a reasonable amount of planning could pull that off, I think.
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Sounds like a fantastic fund raiser for an EAA chapter.

Or...a TV show like Overhaulin'. We could get a hot babe to do the talkin' and boost morale when sealing the tanks.

Dave
 
*Raises hand* I'll seal the tanks, it's not THAT bad, of course, they'll only have 3 gal capacity because of all the proseal I use...
 
I don't know if this is a record (may have been at one time).... but.....

as quoted from Van's....

"There are many exceptions to these estimates. On one hand, at least one QuickBuild Kit took 2000 hours to complete?on the other Jerry Scott, of Chino, California, completed an RV-6 from a Standard Kit (an older kit, manufactured before any pre-punched components were available) in 85 days. That included paint, avionics, upholstery?.everything. "
 
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