R

Randy Miller

Member
I am considering buying a quality built RV9A. Does anyone have any Idea what it would take to get a A&P license or sign off on just the RV9A if you are not the builder. Is it even possible. I am a 25 year diagnostic master Toyota tech and allot of the same mechnics apply and want to be able to do my own service work. I am not as excited about the build process like allot of guys are I am more in to the flying process. Time is money and money is time. Mostly because of my time constraints.

Randy
RV9A wanna be!!
 
I know I am a little sluggish when it comes to the FAR/AIM but I don't See 65.71 Or any 65 am I missing something or am I just blind?

Randy
 
3 ways...

Hello Randy, you need to of built a major portion of your RV-x to get the repairman's cert for that SERIAL number aircraft. So if you have found one already built, there are three ways for you to get your A&P
1. The FAA will let you credit certain Armed Services jobs towards the mechanical experience needed. You visit the local FSDO and talk to an administrator, they (if you meet the requirement from the military) will then issue you a permission slip to go take the test. (I believe you need a letter from an IA as part of the application process) You then go to a prep school like Bakers in TN and study and take the General, the Airframe and the Powerplant test. Then what follows is an oral quiz, and then the practical test.
2. Go be an apprentice for 3 years at an aircraft maintenance facility and get a letter from an IA and repeat the above steps for your license.
3. Go to a college that has the A&P program for their 18 month program and repeat the above steps.

Or... you can work closely with an AP or IA and gain their trust and work with them on the mx on your aircraft. Even though only an A&P is required for your yearly conditional inspection, I'd personally go get an IA to do it. You need a minimum of three years as an A&P to be authorized to take the IA test. Supposedly there is a 50/50 pass fail on the IA test. Most of the guys in my IA class were 50+ and had been aircraft mechanics for a loooooong time. Those IA's have that ticket for a reason and may spot something an A&P might not be aware of. Somehow... buying coffee and donuts and trading flight time to a mechanic seems a lot cheaper than the other steps if you are only looking to maintain only your own aircraft.
ps.. If the aircraft is already flying.... being a PRIVATE pilot... not a student pilot... will let you do a surprising number of things... although you need to understand what you are doing before you do it... I'd say have a mechanic on hand each time for the first time you do a job. Go read the 43 and I also have a very complete checklist for doing your own condition/annual inspection that I give away for free.
If your feeling really generous, you could buy me an RV-3 and I'll do your next conditional inspection for free! ;)

I'm available for questions at 404-405-1315 if you have any.. or I'm at brianpwallis at hotmail.com
Best of Luck!!!!
Brian Wallis
 
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i may be wrong and im sure someone will correct me if i am, but i believe you can do all of the service work on your own "experimental" plane, you just cant sign off the "conditional inspections" (AKA, the annual) if you are not the builder.
 
William is correct. Anyone can work on experimental aircraft during the year. For the condition inspection, either an A&P or a holder of a Repairman's Certificate specific to the aircraft (make/model/SN) can perform the inspection and make the logbook entry. Of course, the pilot/operator is suppoesed to determine the airworthiness of the aircraft prior to any flight during the course of the year, and one needs to make certain to adhere to the operating limitations, meaning major modifications most likely can not be made without contacting the local FSDO.

Vic
 
Randy,
I will just speak for me. I went to get an A&P in the early 90's. At the time I was an ASE certified master automobile technician and was working at a Ford dealership. I went to a part 147 aviation maintenance technician school and did the curriculum which is 400 hours general 750 hours airframe and 750 hours powerplant. 1900 hours. Plus an oral, written and practical for each area. I didn't get any credit for being an auto mechanic. The only advantage I had was I had a mechanical back ground. I went to a community college because I couldn't afford a private school. I was competing with other students for classes and didn't always get the classes I wanted. They didn't offer classes in the summer. It took me 3 years to finish. This was back when people wanted to be airplane mechanics. I know that there are private schools that can slam dunk you in 14 months. Six hours a day 5 days a week. The A&P is my most prized rating because of the time spent. Time spent getting a commercial pilot rating does not even compare.
That being said there is a lot of maintenance items that a private pilot can sign off. Those items are listed in FAR Part 43 appendix A (c) Preventive Maintenance. There are a lot of A&P that will do owner assisted condition inspections.
 
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I am afraid that you are likely sol on getting credit for your auto mechanic experience. I asked the FAA guy while getting my airworthiness cert for my RV7A about applying my aircraft/engine building experience to go test for my A&P (I have built 2 planes and engines). He told me absolutely not, that I had to have the required number of hours working directly under an A&P/IA or have gone through an A&P school. Your best bet is to find a local A&P who is willing to let you do most/all of the cond. inspection work and have him/her review your work and then sign off your log book for a reduced price. I did that for several years with an RV6A that I bought once.
 
Maintenance and repair

AMURRAY said:
That being said there is a lot of maintenance items that a private pilot can sign off. Those items are listed in FAR Part 43 appendix A (c) Preventive Maintenance. There are a lot of A&P that will do owner assisted condition inspections.
Click to expand...

Doesn't apply when the aircraft is an experimental. The owner (doesn't have to be the builder) can do maintenance and repair without an A&P. The only time the A&P comes into play is for the Condition Inspection. The real answer is to have a relationship with an A&P that knows your skill level and will give advice and counsel when needed. This relationship usually includes well timed coffee and the occasional after-work beer. :)

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Funny how the some people can say what they want about certification and throw you for a loop. Our local FSDO said Experimental would count towards the A&P. Here is some info from EAA. Long but worth the read if you are interested. Would also be good to look up the AC to cross check the info.

Question: Can experience gained building an Experimental, Amateur-Built aircraft count towards the practical experience requirements required for an airframe or powerplant license?

Answer: The FAA requires at least 18 months of practical experience for one rating (airframe or powerplant) or 30 months for both ratings. Based on a 40-hour workweek, that equals 2,880 hours of experience for one rating and 4,800 hours for both ratings. The time need not be full time or in consecutive months. FAA Handbook 8900.1, Volume 5, Chapter 5, Section 2, paragraph 5-1135 states that "work gained on an experimental amateur built aircraft should be evaluated on its own merits to determine whether it fulfills the experience requirements". Therefore, you must be able to document the time spent and experience gained in building and maintaining an Experimental, Amateur-Built aircraft. Since it is required that you maintain a builders log in order to receive an Experimental, Amateur-Built airworthiness certificate, you may use the log as documentation of meeting the A & P Experience requirements. There is no required format of a builders log. We suggest a three ring binder be used to keep a running log of the date, time and what was accomplished. As the log is entirely up to the builder to keep, it would not be a bad idea to have it validated from time to time by a friendly A & P with an entry such as "I have reviewed the work hours and the log of the work and found them to be correct. Signed John Smith, A & P, etc." Another way to validate the log is to have it notarized and taken to the FAA inspector.


Other Resources

AC65-2D Airframe & Powerplant Mechanics Certification Guide
 
Condition Inspection

I am an A&P yet when I finish my RV-6 I am going to have my IA look over the RV just as he has signed off annuals on my Cub and Grumman. Can't beat another pair of experienced eyes looking over you shoulder.

Ken
 
Ken said:
I am an A&P yet when I finish my RV-6 I am going to have my IA look over the RV just as he has signed off annuals on my Cub and Grumman. Can't beat another pair of experienced eyes looking over you shoulder.

Ken
Click to expand...
AMEN!!!!!!
 
Confessions....

You can never have too many eyes looking at your project. I always invite my builder friends/A&P's and our local Designated A&P Examiner to look over my airplane prior to inspection. NO pride here. And sometimes, it still isn't enough!
On my recent RV-7, I had a number of people poke and prod at it, including the Designated Examiner, who always does a very thorough job. And, since I am a DAR, the local MIDO decided they wanted to inspect mine. Hence 3 inspectors showed up and went over my airplane. Guess what---no squawks, and I was told that it was the first time they had seen that. Imagine my surprise, when at 10 hours I pulled the cowling down for inspections, and filter cleanings, and I went to cut the safety wire on the gascolator so I could clean it, and there WASN"T any safety wire! Boy did that set me back!!!

No flames for installing the gascolator, please. :)

Vic
 
A&P priveledges

I am currently attending A&P school and am a commercial pilot going for CFI and CFII next week. I will be finished the Airframe in December and the Powerplant in June. That being said you have to have 30 months A&P full time experience before an IA or A&P can sign you off for the test. It then must be reviewd by the FAA and "IF" they buy it off based on your experience, you can go for the test. Many places they will not buy off on the xp unless you have proof such as pay stubs, log book ect. The alternative is a part 147 A&P school and the FAA has mandated a minimum of 24 months. To do both A&P it takes usually 28 months full time school.

As for what you can and cannot repair. The experimental certificate on an aircraft is an airworthiness certificate and as such FAA regulation apply. When you build the aircraft you can apply for a repairman's cert which allows you to do all repairs, maintenance and inspections for that aircraft. Without it, as in if you purchase one already built, there is a large debate as to the legality of doing repairs and inspections.

As owner/operator with a pilots license you may do preventative maintenance. I have seen no where in the regs where you are allowed do your own repairs without the repairmans certificate. No one has ever been able to show me the regulation where it says you can do your own repairs or inspections without an A&P, IA or repairmans certificate.

I hope this helps, and if anyone can show me a regulation proving otherwise I certainly would like to see it. It would clear up this grey area debate among several eaa members that hang out oat the local FBO.

Tom W
 
TomW said:
I have seen no where in the regs where you are allowed do your own repairs without the repairmans certificate. No one has ever been able to show me the regulation where it says you can do your own repairs or inspections without an A&P, IA or repairmans certificate.

I hope this helps, and if anyone can show me a regulation proving otherwise I certainly would like to see it. It would clear up this grey area debate among several eaa members that hang out oat the local FBO.

Tom W
Click to expand...
Tom, You are correct that there is no reg that says you "can" do the work. The fact is there is nothing in the regs that says you "can't do the work" except in part 43. Part 43 does not apply to experimental aircraft ref 43.1(b).
Part 43 only applies to experimental aircraft when referenced in the operating limitations in that the condition inspection is to be performed to the "scope and detail" of part 43, appendix D.
The repairman certificate (part 65.104) only allows the holder to sign off the condition inspection. It has nothing to do with maintenance (65.104(b).
Hope this helps. 972-784-7544
 
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