tkatc

tkatc

Well Known Member
I recently discovered a new technique used by "A" model pilots on takeoff. I was taught to keep the stick full aft while applying power then relieve some pressure as you begin the roll. Continue to hold slight back pressure and let it fly itself off the ground. The nosewheel never really loses ground contact until liftoff.

The new technique I discovered has the pilot continue full aft stick while applying power, this gets the nosewheel off the ground almost immediately and then you hold that posture until it flies off. Basically you balance a "wheelie" the entire takeoff roll.

What technique is more common? Have the nosewheel failures ever occured on takeoff or just on landing?
 
Thats how I do it

Basicly everything is a soft field approach for me. The nosewheel is there for taxi purposes, nothing more.

Randy
8A
 
A model takeoffs

hi Tony

We have only had our 7a since March so you will get input from many with much more experience. But here is my 02

From pavement, I use normal technique with just slight backpressure and rotate it just past flying speed.

From grass, I use the wheelie method just as you described it. The idea is to get the NW off the ground as soon as possible then let it run on the mains until it is ready to fly. Don't pull the nose too high after lift-off as that makes it hard to see the terrain and trees.
 
N208ET said:
Basicly everything is a soft field approach for me. The nosewheel is there for taxi purposes, nothing more.
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I'm with Randy. Every takeoff and landing is soft-field technique. This way I never forget to do it when I do operate off of grass. IMHO if you are "rotating" a nosewheel RV at take-off speeds you are doing it wrong. Get the nose off early and let it fly off the ground. Keep it in ground effect till 80kts -- climb out of the pattern and establish cruise climb at 100-130kts (depending on OAT).

My question is *why* put the nosewheel down if you don't have to -- especially on landing. It's not doing anything for you on the ground -- it's free castoring. Leave it up on landing, get aerodynamic braking affect saving your brake pads and steer with the rudder.

Yes, I keep the nose up even in crosswind conditions.

YMMV and this info is worth precisely what you paid for it.

Edit: one thing you can do is practice touch-n-goes while never letting the nosewheel touch the ground
 
I was taught "wheelie" technique from day 1

My transition training was exactly as described about . . . Stick back during roll once nose wheel lifts off pavement drop nose slightly, keeping nose wheel up continue take off on main only. Landing is the same . . . Mains only. Drop nose wheel after speed is bled off. I like this technique. Actually it's kind f fun to master. Still mastering it myself;)
 
Just be careful when taking off with a headwind with the stick full back, It will try to jump off the ground way before you want it to. I take off with the stick back far enough to relieve pressure on the nose wheel and try to get off the ground as as possible during takeoff and I don't let it down on landing until I can't keep it off. I'm still learning though.
 
Unless conditions are really windy (in which case I would not be flying), I kept the nose off the ground as much as possible - as soon as you can on takeoff and as late as you can on landing. The big tail allows you plenty of control.

greg
 
Keep it off as much as possible.

When you apply power the stick should be full back. When the wheel leaves the ground start relaxing the stick, but don't let the wheel touch ground again.
On landing reverse the process. Touch with the mains and keep the stick back as far as possible until just before it falls. At that point ease it back to the ground.

I know that this sound like you need to be a super accurate judge of angles and motion, but just strive for this as a goal and it won't be long until you will have it.

Kent
 
I have done both. I don't find one way harder than the other. I just wanted to know what most pilots prefer.

I am ever concious about the nosewheel being a "weak link" so I wanted to get opinions. I also wanted to know if nosewheel failures occur on takeoff just as much as on landing....I would think it wouldn't because of the speeds.
 
Not according to Mike

kentb said:
When you apply power the stick should be full back. When the wheel leaves the ground start relaxing the stick, but don't let the wheel touch ground again.
Kent
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That's not what Mike Seager teaches....but what would he know (he only has about 10,000 hours in RVs). :D

Mike instructs to have neutral stick on application of power and then to pull the stick back progressively as the elevators become effective to get the nose just off the ground at the earliest possible time (it only takes a few seconds).

The problem with full aft stick at power up is that into a strong wind you can have the nose rearing up on you.
 
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Captain Avgas said:
Mike instructs to have neutral stick on application of power and then to pull the stick back progressively as the elevators become effective to get the nose just off the ground at the earliest possible time (it only takes a few seconds).
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The reason I hold full back pressure is you can tell when the elevators become effective. And it gets the nose wheel off of the ground as soon as possible. It's not like you are lacking in power. Like a 150 hp Warrior.

I will ask Mike about that when I go for my (ugh!) tail wheel training.

ps. needed for my 3 ...........:D

pss. Van's own words...... see The RVator fourth issue 2000 page 9. Also in this issue is the announcement of kit number 80434 by Danny King "Beautiful Doll" first flight July 12.
 
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There is nothing wrong with having the stick full back.........and then pushing it forward as power is applied. I got to where I could keep the nose wheel off the ground, and not allow the airplane to take off too early.

Note: I flew an RV6A, which already has the wings looking at a bit more angle of attack, when all wheels are on the ground. It's different than the long legged "flat stance" 7 & 9's.

As to landing in an "A" model. New advice...........if you have the slightest "bounce", then power out of it. I didn't. It was followed by a second bounce of approx. 30" high, which was followed by what seemed a spring action from the gear, with a very low airspeed, and nose quickly pointing down. The nose gear tucked under, the C/S prop struck the pavement. We stopped as soon as the prop struck. Speed was slow enough........that we didn't even feel a tug on the seatbelts. I do believe that I landed too fast, and didn't pay enough attention to a good flare. The 6A "didn't" even start to flip. But the nosegear wasn't in a hole, either.

L.Adamson
 
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Be carefull

of full back stick take offs particularly if there is shifty winds. I have a 6A and used a full back stick takeoff following advise on this site and nearly had a nasty accident. Approaching 50 knots had what was probably a small gust and the plane jumped about ten feet into the air and then obviously out of the gust and the plane rolled all over the place with the stall warning blaring. Luckily I was one up and managed to keep it separated from the ground until speed increased. I fly off grass but will not use that method now.

I apply back pressure while applying power and just keep enough back pressure to keep the nose light all the way through to lift off. As far as I understand it the nose gear failures have all been while landing not taking off when the weight pitch's forward and loads up the leg. So cant see the reason to do a 'wheelie' on take off.

For landing on grass I flare and keep the plane just off the runway and let it gently settle on the mains and hold the nose off. I also raise the flaps once speed starts to wash off and do not use the brakes so no pressure applied to the nose leg. My 6A has and O - 320 and a fixed pitch prop so is not heavy on the front to start with.

Works for me :)
 
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Captain Avgas said:
.. pull the stick back progressively as the elevators become effective to get the nose just off the ground ...
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It's been a long time since I flewca tricycle gear airplane but my PPL instructor and later my complex instructor taught this technique.

As they described it, "unload the nose wheel; get it just off the ground; hold that attitude and the plane will lift off in that attitude." There is still the desire to get all the wheels off the ground quickly on a rough field and hold ground effect until speed builds. So, in these cases, additional nose high attitude is warranted.

This could be old news. As I've said, I haven't flown with a nose wheel in a long time.
 
We Are NOT Talking About Full Back Stick Takeoffs!

kymjon said:
of full back stick take offs particularly if there is shifty winds. I have a 6A and used a full back stick takeoff following advise on this site and nearly had a nasty accident. Approaching 50 knots had what was probably a small gust and the plane jumped about ten feet into the air and then obviously out of the gust and the plane rolled all over the place with the stall warning blaring. Luckily I was one up and managed to keep it separated from the ground until speed increased. I fly off grass but will not use that method now.<<<<<snip>>>>
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I have NEVER heard of anyone advocating a full back stick takeoff, this is a bad idea!

Full back stick on taxi, and initial rollout. As soon as the nosewheel starts to lift, ease the stick forward to hold the nosewheel two to four inches above the runway. Keep easing the stick forward to maintain this attitude as speed builds, take off in this attitude.

Hans
 
Captain Avgas said:
That's not what Mike Seagar teaches....but what would he know (he only has about 10,000 hours in RVs). :D

Mike instructs to have neutral stick on application of power and then to pull the stick back progressively as the elevators become effective to get the nose just off the ground at the earliest possible time (it only takes a few seconds).

The problem with full aft stick at power up is that into a strong wind you can have the nose rearing up on you.
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I'm totally in with what Mike says too. You won't believe how quick an RV-9A will get airborne with full aft stick in a headwind.
 
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No, not full back stick takeoffs!!!!!

The stick is held full back so you can feel when the elevator starts to take the load of the nose. And then you RELEASE back pressure enough to allow the nose wheel to just clear the ground. Hold it there till the aircraft lifts off on it's own. This is a soft field procedure that you were taught within your first 40 hours.

But if you don't understand your trim system, and you don't trim for takeoff, then don't do it this way. The trim should be set where all you have to do is release pressure and not have to push the stick fwd. My trim for landing is set nose heavy, it gives me a better feel of what the a/c is doing. And for my plane, it is also the same amount of trim that I use for takeoff.

During any wind condition it is best to keep the mains loaded a little longer, but not the nose.
 
gasman said:
My trim for landing is set nose heavy, it gives me a better feel of what the a/c is doing.
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When I started doing this, my landings became a lot more consistent, and induced a lot less stress in my poor old brain.

For those times when I have the rear seats full, this is almost a necessity, as the tendency to over rotate on landing is much greater.

I also hit the flap switch (up) soon as the mains touch down, makes the plane stick better, makes it easier to keep the nose off, and cleans up the plane if I have to go around.
 
Here is the best example where the stick (elevator) should be during takeoff.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haqgyE25YbI&feature=youtu.be

Pause this video at 50 sec. and look at where the elevator is set at. It was also in that same position during his taxi.

Pause again at 1 min. and 2 sec. you see the nose has cleared the ground, and the elevator is now relaxed almost neutral.

I don't think anyone can question Scott's ability to fly any model RV.

I hope this video clears up any confusion on how to transition an "A" model RV.
 
gasman said:
I hope this video clears up any confusion on how to transition an "A" model RV.
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There is no confusion...just a difference of opinion between pushing the stick forward as you begin to accelerate, or pulling the stick aft as you begin to accelerate. Either technique, properly applied with finesse, can be used to get the nose wheel off the ground within a few seconds of applying power. And that really is the main goal.

Obviously both techniques have been used by VERY experiences RV pilots with great success.

I only entered into the discussion when I saw that the "push-the-stick-forward" advocates were trying to convince readers that they were the guardians of the only truth. :rolleyes:

I've used both techniques and they both work OK to get the nose gear off the ground in a very short distance. I just prefer to start with stick neutral and pull back. For me it feels more intuitive and seems to provide marginally better control in gusty conditions. But that's just me....your mileage may vary.

The key is for all RV pilots to understand that they need to get the nose off the ground as soon as is physically possible on take-off.....using EITHER of the techniques discussed. ;)
 
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Captain Avgas said:
There is no confusion...just a difference of opinion between pushing the stick forward as you begin to accelerate, or pulling the stick aft as you begin to accelerate. Either technique, properly applied with finesse, can be used to get the nose wheel off the ground within a few seconds of applying power. And that really is the main goal.

Obviously both techniques have been used by VERY experiences RV pilots with great success.

I only entered into the discussion when I saw that the "push-the-stick-forward" advocates were trying to convince readers that they were the guardians of the only truth. :rolleyes:

I've used both techniques and they both work OK to get the nose gear off the ground in a very short distance. I just prefer to start with stick neutral and pull back. For me it feels more intuitive and seems to provide marginally better control in gusty conditions. But that's just me....your mileage may vary.

The key is for all RV pilots to understand that they need to get the nose off the ground as soon as is physically possible on take-off.....using EITHER of the techniques discussed. ;)
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My trim is set nose heavy for take off and I should never have to push the stick forward.

As I said before, I hold the stick full aft, and when the nose starts to lift, I relax the back pressure. I do not push the stick forward.
 
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My only reason for mentioning the full aft stick method is during the first 40 hours I was doing this and as soon as I felt the nose start to raise I would relax the pressure to hold the nose off slightly. The first time I took off in a 10 knot headwind the nose jumped straight up before I could react. I quickly pushed the nose back down before it became airborne. Now I hold some back pressure on take off but not full and it makes it much easier to hold the nose off until the plane is ready to fly. I DO hold the stick full back after touchdown as soon as I'm sure the plane won't try to lift off again. On another note, so far I have not felt any shimmy or anything out of the norm on take off or landing. The mains and nose wheel roll smooth with no problems. I'm running 32 psi in all tires. I LOVE my RV:)
 
rv9aviator said:
My only reason for mentioning the full aft stick method is during the first 40 hours I was doing this and as soon as I felt the nose start to raise I would relax the pressure to hold the nose off slightly. The first time I took off in a 10 knot headwind the nose jumped straight up before I could react. I quickly pushed the nose back down before it became airborne. Now I hold some back pressure on take off but not full and it makes it much easier to hold the nose off until the plane is ready to fly. I DO hold the stick full back after touchdown as soon as I'm sure the plane won't try to lift off again. On another note, so far I have not felt any shimmy or anything out of the norm on take off or landing. The mains and nose wheel roll smooth with no problems. I'm running 32 psi in all tires. I LOVE my RV:)
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Jim, I guess that's exactly why Mike Seager doesn't teach the full aft stick method. The man has probably 10 times more instructing hours on RVs than anyone else in the world and I'm guessing that he teaches the neutral stick at power-up method because he has found through his vast experience that this is the method that is most reliable in all conditions to teach to students with greatly varying levels of flying skill.

Personally I think that an experienced pilot truly proficent on type could safely adopt either method (or something in-between as you have) with a bit of practice. People who say you MUST do it one way or the other (my way or the highway) are just being pedantic or overly competitive about their own pet procedure.
 
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