[AndyRV7]

Hi,

I was hoping someone could educate me a little on maintenance. I am thinking in terms of an RV, but I may like to try to buy a trainer to log hours in in the Spring. So the answers should help in both regards. If I buy a trainer it will be because it is the most economical plane to fly (fuel anyway!).

What I am curious about is what exactly are the maintenance requirements for an airplane? I'm not worried about things like replacing fluids and whatnot, more what is required by the FAA or manufacturer for things like an annual or a major overhaul (or any other common maintenance). These are only terms I've heard before. I have no idea what they actually entail, or how often the overhaul has to be done (which I assume is more expensive than an annual inspection).

Any info you guys have would be a great help to me. I've been searching all the usual plane trading publications, trying to come up with a plan for when I complete my pilot training, but I can't really get a sense of what a good deal or bad deal might be because I have no sense of what the costs or schedules of maintenance are. Since the RV uses the same engines as might be found in a Cessna, I assume the requirements are going to be pretty similar.

Thanks!! Andy

 

[Mike_ExpressCT]

AVIATE:

Annual-required every 12 calendar months (homebuilts require a "condition" inspection, not annual). It's basically an inspection of the entire airframe that follows a specific list given by the company that built the airplane. The A&P will take off inspection panels, check hinges, bolts, tires, brakes, engine compression, general condition of airframe, etc. It normally takes several days to accomplish, assuming nothing is found broken. Homebuilders will do the same thing on their own (that condition inspection), assuming they built the airplane.

VOR-for IFR flying, the VOR must be checked every 30 days.

100 Hour Inspection- Only for aircraft used for compensation or hire. Basically the same inspection as an annual

Altimeter- for IFR flying, it must be checked every 24 calendar months

Transponder- all aircraft must have a transponder check every 24 calendar months

ELT- must be checked every 12 calendar months. Many do this at the annual.

When you're talking about an overhaul, you're talking about a tear down and rebuilding of the engine where you inspect everything and replace worn parts. There are several types of overhauls, depending on how thorough you want to be (and how much you're willing to spend). Engine builders will publish a recommended Time Between Overhauls (known as TBO), but it's just a recommendation, not a requirement.

These are the required inspections, which hopefully gets you started, but if you want to know about all maintenance, that is a very general subject with lots of points. You may want to consider talking to an A&P about it at some point.

 

[AndyRV7]

That's excellent info! Thanks.

Just some more details now please. Obviously, an "annual" can be a pretty varied expense depending on what is found. Can you tell me what a typical inspection might cost if nothing is found that needs repair? Also, are there some common things that wear out, like brakes or tires, or cables or whatever? I'm not looking for precise answers, just to form a kind of opinion about what type of costs I might run into.

Also, on the overhaul, I see you can buy a new 180hp engine for around $30K. So this is worst case. But is there a ballpark figure for an overhaul, when all cylinders are good and no piston or rod issues exist (that is, the moving metal parts are all in tolerance, but maybe some gaskets or smaller items need attention)? Again, I am just trying to see what the longer-term costs might be. For example, can you typically go 2-3 overhauls before you need new cylinders or pistons, or do these things typically get replaced every overhaul.

Oh, and I guess one last thing. What is the typical TBO for something like an O-360 that might be found in an RV? Is it 500 hours, or more like 2000 hours.

I know these are all going to be generalizations, but I am starting at square-1, so this is all good discussion. Thanks again for the help!!

Andy

 

[John Clark]

Annual/condition inspection prices

Andy,
There is no way to really nail down the cost of an annual inspection on a certified airplane. You can ask a few shops what the charge is for an "open, inspect, and close" on a particular aircraft. Shops usually have a "flat rate" for that part of the inspection. Obviously, repairs or replacing worn parts is extra. The variables include part replacments and ADs (airworthiness directives) that are mandated by the FAA on the airframe or components. Another good source of information is a "type club" for the specific airplane involved.

The main thing to remember is that if your buy a used production aircraft it is likely to be quite old. Old equates to more cost to maintain. When you build your RV, the inspections are simpler because it is fresh. Old aircraft are having corrosion issues and things that years to develop.

I just looked through the files on a Cessna 182 (1977) that I used to own. The cheapest annual was $350. the highest was $5200. And I was assisting the IA by doing some of the work. The most I have spent on a condition inspection on my RV8 is $400. but that included main gear tires and a battery.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[Mike_ExpressCT]

After talking to one of my students who also happens to be an A&P/IA, his base rate for a fixed gear, two seat airplane is around $600. So that's the absolute bare minimum, assuming everything is great on the plane. Figure more like $750-1000 for a "standard" annual (no real problems), and as we've already said it can easily be 3-5 times that if something needs some additional work.

When talking about overhauls, there are several options to consider. There are field overhauls, top-end overhauls, complete overhauls, with tons of different options when deciding. And you're right, the most expensive way will just be a brand new engine, followed by a rebuilt engine, and then overhauls which (my gut feeling) could be anywhere from $15,000-$25,000, depending on what you want.

Most 4 cylinder Lycoming engines have recommended TBO's of 1800-2000 hours, depending on make. If you get into turbocharging and larger engines, that may drop as low as 1500 hours, and on the opposite end of the spectrum, the small, 4 cylinder Cessna 152 engine (O-235) I believe has 2400 hours. Like I said though...you aren't required to overhaul at that time...it's just what the company that built the engine suggests. Most people will look more towards the condition of the engine (the compressions, how much oil it burns, etc.) to decide when it's time to overhaul. I've heard of several engines that are taken good care of and ran often that weren't overhauled until they had well over 3000 hours on them, and even then there wasn't anything wrong with them. Most A&Ps will tell you that, if you want to make an engine last, be gentle to it (avoid abrupt power changes, etc.) and run it as much as you can, hopefully at least once a week.


Are you thinking about a certain type of certified airplane? Or are you comparing the differences between certified and homebuilt?

 

[AndyRV7]

Thanks John. I hear what you are saying and understand. The whole buy/rent thing is a hazy mystery. Maybe if you choose to buy, the best you can really hope for is some good luck!!

I can't go right to an RV because I am only going to have the national average of hours (more or less) by Spring when I finish my license. So I had hoped to buy a 2-seater to log time in and if it could have been a Cessna 140, or even a Citabria, then it would have killed two birds with one rock. But even if I had to get into a C152 or the like, I could have logged enough tail time over at Andover Aeroflex. But I really want to own a plane. I knew that long before I took my first lesson (or even decided to take my first lesson). So now the question is what to do between my pilot certificate and the time I might be able to build or even buy an RV.

Thanks for the feedback!

Andy

 

[BillFear]

Andy, John makes a great point about older trainers. The C150 I occasionally rent is in generally good condition. However, it seems like whenever I want to fly it there is something not working. Owner told me the last annual was $3700 and that did not really involve anything major (had a leaky noisewheel strut). Even a simple plane like the 150 has a ton of very expensive parts!

Bill

 

[AndyRV7]

Are you thinking about a certain type of certified airplane? Or are you comparing the differences between certified and homebuilt?

I feel a lot smarter already now Mike. Thanks again.

I am looking at all the 5GPH 2-seaters. They are just less of a commitment (from a purchase standpoint), and the most efficient to fly on an hourly basis. But when you get right down to it, there aren't too many in the class. I like the C140, the Beech Skipper, and the Grumman Yankee Clipper. They all have their own drawbacks though. But at around $25K to buy, and 5GPH in fuel, I think they would be pretty good choices for logging time and doing some short (slow) X-country.

I really want the RV-7 for all the reasons you people do. The performance envelope is greater than vitually anything else I've run into in my search. I don't mean it flys faster, but it also slows down well, can be flown into a grass strip, and can do X-country upside down if you care to. So how can you go wrong!? But even if there was a large pre-owned market, there is still a significant expense and you give up the tremendous ability to know and maintain your own plane.

So I am not ready to fly an RV, but I want one. And if I had the choice, while I was building time and skill, I would rahter do it in my own plane than to pay my school $110 bucks an hour to do laps around the field or short restrictive trips.

I guess the few posts I've made in here are just helping me in both regards. I got my RV-7 preview plans yesterday in the mail. The one thing about building is that if you want the plane next year, you need to start building 2 years ago So I'm just trying to come up with an educated plan I guess.

Andy

 

[586RG]

It appears you are asking what it might really cost to own a basic airplane.
Owning your own airplane is an expensive venture. Hangar $150 and up per month (or your plane is always dirty and ages quicker). Insurance: for a Cessna 150 worth $30,000 this might only be $800 or so per year. I paid $6800 per year for a $400,000 Mooney, $2600 for the RV6 worth $105,000. Annual: figure $1500 for a C-150 if you don't run into any major problems. I had a $100,000 Mooney M20 J and got stuck with a $15,000 annual once on a plane with no apparent problems that had been having routine annuals, and this wasn't for corrosion or some other nightmare. I was charged $250 to stop drill a crack for example (ie put drill bit on drill, then drill small hole in sheet metal.) Parts for certified aircraft are outrageously expensive. Avionics are expensive to repair. There is always some steam guage that needs to be overhauled. Then there is depreciation to consider: airframe depreciation, engine time depreciation, prop depreciation, paint depreciation, interior depreciation, avionics depreciation. All of these have a limited lifespan and you have to budget for them. Or buy a plane that someone has updated and that has 600 hours or so on the engine and then sell it before it reaches midtime (usually 1000 hours on a 2000 hour TBO). It is almost always cheaper to buy a refurbished plane than to buy a junker and try to fix it up.
Have someone who knows what they are doing help you buy the plane.
Have an annual done as the "prebuy" inspection.
Overall, it makes a lot of sense financially to buy a 150 that is in excellent shape and then fly the heck out of it while you slowly build your dream plane. If you don't plan to fly 150 to 200 hours per year you are better off renting.

 

[AndyRV7]

Andy, John makes a great point about older trainers. The C150 I occasionally rent is in generally good condition. However, it seems like whenever I want to fly it there is something not working. Owner told me the last annual was $3700 and that did not really involve anything major (had a leaky noisewheel strut). Even a simple plane like the 150 has a ton of very expensive parts!

Bill

It's a shame too, because the 150/152 seems to be the most common of the planes we've been talking about. I've left them off my list (not because I wouldn't be very happy to own one), but because they are the highest hour planes I've seen. They are also narrower inside too, which is a concern. But I'd own any of these planes and love it like a proud parent!

 

[thallock]

Like a black hole.

Andy,

When I was a student, my instructor said if you fly less than 100 hours a year, it is cheaper to rent. I think that is still a pretty good yardstick. I have owned 4 airplanes. I have never gotten the "standard" $750-$1000 annual on any of them. The closest that I came was $1500 on a champ more than 20 years ago. The last plane that I owned was a Cherokee 140. I asked the shop to do the bare minimum the first year because I was short on reserves that year. That "bare minimum" annual cost me $2400.

Also, when you own, you have to consider things like tie down or hanger fees, avionics repairs and upgrades, painting, washing, etc. Depending upon where you live, tie-down can be anything from free to several hundred dollars a month. Hangars are even more expensive. Also, note, that the $30,000 for a new IO-360 engine does not include the cost of removing the old engine and installing the new engine.

Owning an airplane is like owning a boat, only more expensive. They are like black holes that you just toss money at, and the money magically disappears.

Note, that it is not my intention to scare you away from owning an airplane. You just need to be aware of the actual costs involved. There are books and articles that go over this stuff. Sometimes, it's possible to reduce the costs by doing some of the work under the supervision of an A&P, but unless you know one personally, the probability of finding one who would let you do the work is slim. Basically, any work that you do is taking money out of their pockets. Some of them do like to have a helper who does all of the little dirty jobs.

Cheers,
Tracy.

 

[brianwallis]

COST

Hey guys... these are my numbers that I use for the avg joe..
THE BEST THING YOU CAN DO IS FIND AN A&P I/A FOR A PARTNER!!!!!!!!!!! That way you can learn from him/her and get to know your airplane....


1. hanger. 300/mo
2. ins 110/mo
3. annual 1100/yr
4. misc 4000/yr
5... these are super general numbers... not specific.

budget 50 an hour for airplane stuff when you fly it plus gas and you should be ok.......... I hope

I charge 1100 for an annual on a 172.... or an RV
I charge 100 extra for wheelpants
I take off 500 bucks for owner assist.... often I do twice the work but I teach and educate the owner... and that saves me so much frustration it's well worth it!!! There is no magic bean under the cowl.
1-404-405-1315 if you have any questions
DONT try and buy something without a pre-buy/annual.
Dont try and buy something that you think you can refurbish unless you are totally in love with it and you are going to keep it FOREVER... "know what I mean Vern?"(quote from movie)
You dont put a brand new guy in an RV and expect everything to be hunky dorey... If you learn to fly in an RV you should be ok... but a lot of pilots fly spamcans that take 4 miles to turn.. and a new pilot can do some really neat things in an RV when He/she does not mean to, so it could be dangerous if the pilot does not have enough time in it. The RV was not designed to be a trainer. I have a grumman yankee... it's cheap.... not fast... but flies similar to an RV... I'm an IA... so I'm not rich... and it's all I can do... but it's an airplane.. super simple to work on and FUN to fly. I'll have an RV... someday.
Best of luck!
Brian Wallis
Lots of older 172's are out there from pilots losing their medicals.... dont buy a newer one...

 

[AndyRV7]

Hangar $150 and up per month (or your plane is always dirty and ages quicker).

Haha, I'm coming to NC! I stopped by the airport operations trailer after my lesson last Sunday. They want $267 a month for a tie-down with no electric or anything else. Just the pavement and the rope!

 

[AndyRV7]

Andy,

When I was a student, my instructor said if you fly less than 100 hours a year, it is cheaper to rent.

Thanks Tracy. Yes, I think 200 hours should be something I can easily accomplish and even afford at this poitn. I'm in no hurry to log time, I just think I will want to fly all the time!!

This is all good feedback. I guess after a while you can melt this all down into the simple facts. Another benefit to renting (to go with all the cons) is that you also pick up a few knots of speed. All I have available around me ar C172's.

I think I am going to have to start looking for the little old lady who is the original owner, hasn't flown for years, and only used the plane to fly to the market!!

 

[brianwallis]

!!!!!

sounds like a great reason not to have an airplane there... Here is what you need to do.
1 Find a local Snap-on/Matco etc guy...
2 Buy a ratcheting stubby (snap-on), safetywire pliers.. dykes, needlenose, regular pliers, a full set of extensions, a drill, a 1/4 in set of sockets(sears) and the swivel head ratchet from snap or matco. The sparkplug socket and a full set of wrenches from sears should do a lot. Get the 3/8 swivel head wrachet from Snap-On and a 3 foot breaker bar and a brake tool for your brake pads... Get the full set of snap or matco screwdrivers and some files.
3. Get the aircraft repairmans book and the 08 FAR/AMT (read thoroughly)
4. Those are the minimus to take care of your airplane...
5. Get to know a local AP/IA and trade him/her flight time for help learning mx///// DONT DO ANYTHING BY YOURSELF THE FIRST TIME!!!!! Always have supervision by a licensed mechanic. Not the local group of old men who think they know it all.. get a licensed professional.. and ask around... There are a bunch of crooked people in the business....
I'm always available for free phone or email questions...
Best
Brian Wallis
404-405-1315

 

[AndyRV7]

I have a grumman yankee... it's cheap.... not fast... but flies similar to an RV... I'm an IA... so I'm not rich... and it's all I can do... but it's an airplane.. super simple to work on and FUN to fly. I'll have an RV... someday.

Except for the IA part, this is me!!

One thing I've seen in here and heard from others is not to try to buy a fixer-upper. I absolutely have no interest in that. I don't need a pretty plane, but I want a reliable one!! Maybe you can't actually find them like that, But that is what my goal is.

He Brian, What can you tell me about your Yankee? Fuel burn, cruise performance, approach speed, likes/dislikes?

Thanks!

 

[brianwallis]

I think I am going to have to start looking for the little old lady who is the original owner, hasn't flown for years, and only used the plane to fly to the market!![/QUOTE]
.

NO!!!! those planes often require tons of work.... get one thats flown regularly!!!!!!! a sitting airplane... is super bad for it... and dont just fly with anyone... ask the local mechanics.. they will know who is safe and who is not... I know of one person locally.. I refused to work on his airplane because he took too many risks... later on the airplane was geared up.... it did not have my signature in it! NOR did I fly with this pilot.... I took one look at his plane and about fainted.... some people work on a truck once and decide they can build an airplane...
Best
Brian

 

[brianwallis]

yankee

It's a low powered rv-6a... better vis... a touch less responsive perhaps.. yoke instead of a stick.... better nosewheel set-up... The canopy slides back in flight.. rv's cannot do that.. so It's like free Air Conditioning... You've got to be on your game to fly it... LOVE IT!!!! 19 grand... go to www.wallisaviation.com and i have a pic on the home page of it.
Best
Brian

110/128 mph depending on wheel pants..
7gph burn
24 gal.. 22 useable
over the fence at 80

 

[AndyRV7]

That's a beautiful plane. I didn't realize they were that fast on approach, or that they couldn't carry more fuel. Looks like you have a great little bird there though!

 

[Ironflight]

Find a few more builders in your area that are in the same boat (need and airplane to knock around in and stay current) and buy a Yankee in a partnership - cuts the fixed costs and lets the airplane stay limber (i.e. not sit and corrode away) while each of you attends to your building!

I owned a Yankee for 20+ years, and usually put 200+ hours a year on it - that dropped about in half when I was building my -8.....you gotta choose whether to go fly or pound rivets, and if you want the RV experience.....

Paul

 

[wirejock]

Rent or buy

My issue with renting is travel. I can't rent a plane and fly somewhere visit for a week and fly back. I see the purchase as more economical. Of course there is always commercial but it's no fun. I want an RV-7 so bad. Even if it does take me years to build.

 

[frankh]

Ha ha ha

Find a few more builders in your area that are in the same boat (need and airplane to knock around in and stay current) and buy a Yankee in a partnership - cuts the fixed costs and lets the airplane stay limber (i.e. not sit and corrode away) while each of you attends to your building!

I owned a Yankee for 20+ years, and usually put 200+ hours a year on it - that dropped about in half when I was building my -8.....you gotta choose whether to go fly or pound rivets, and if you want the RV experience.....

Paul

Get real Paul....You know you really need to sell the Yankee and get the RV in the air as fast as possible..

At least if your VFR jock you do...IFR is expensive to let all that currency lapse.

Cheers

Frank

 

[DEWATSON]

Andy,

My two cents..............buy a Cessna 120/140. They are a blast to fly. I've owned two of them and would like to have another one. I'm currently building a RV8..........I'm about half done. I can't wait to finish and fly it. I fly a Starduster Too right now. It shares the hangar with the 8. I guess I'm blessed.......I have my own airstrip and hangar and don't suffer a monthly cost. The initial investment was tuff, but you have to work for things you want. Brian Wallis has given you some very good advice. You'll do well to take it. I don't have any experience with the Yankee though........my time builder was the Cessna 140. It has proven to be my cheapest most effiecient airplane. If you consider a 140, buy a restored one with "up to date" avionics. Let Brian look it over. You can fly it for years and enjoy every minute of it.

David Watson
Quincy, Fl

 

[AndyRV7]

Thanks for all the insight people! I feel much more educated now!!

Andy,

My two cents..............buy a Cessna 120/140. They are a blast to fly. I've owned two of them and would like to have another one. I'm currently building a RV8..........I'm about half done. I can't wait to finish and fly it. I fly a Starduster Too right now. It shares the hangar with the 8. I guess I'm blessed.......I have my own airstrip and hangar and don't suffer a monthly cost. The initial investment was tuff, but you have to work for things you want. Brian Wallis has given you some very good advice. You'll do well to take it. I don't have any experience with the Yankee though........my time builder was the Cessna 140. It has proven to be my cheapest most effiecient airplane. If you consider a 140, buy a restored one with "up to date" avionics. Let Brian look it over. You can fly it for years and enjoy every minute of it.

David Watson
Quincy, Fl

David, I think I do want the 140. My only hesitation has been the fact that it is the oldest, and cloth covered. But if you can get over that hurdle and any uneasyness of commiting to a tail wheel instead of bailing to an arguably easier to handle trike, then I think it would be a great plane to have. I haven't heard anyone say they didn't like flying it.

We'll see. I guess the weather pattern has changed here now. All wind and clouds lately. So who knows when I may even be done with my training. Spring is going to be a challenge. But I have all Winter to look around and keep asking questions. And so far, this forum has been great. Lots of good insight from nice people!!

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Cheap flying oxymoron

If you are no going to log more than 150-200 hours a year you might want to forget it and make a deal with a solvent (ie not going out of business) FBO for a block time. Also if you are building hours you want dry rate and than you fly at very low power and leaned.

Do you have time,
facilities,
ability,
tools
and help
to do your own maintenance.

I'm not being a spoiler, maintenance is fun to me and YOU will learn a LOT maintaining your own plane. I did the care and feeding of a 1958 Piper Apache twin for several years and flew the snot out of it. I think I worked on it an hour for every two or three I flew. Part of that was that I kept it nice. However there where unexpected things like when the hydraulic pack went weird or gear bushing where worn out, it was a nightmare of work. Than the PROP inspections....... Fortunately I did most of the work with a few sympathetic A&P and AI friends helping me. That keep cost down. If I had to farme all work out, it would have been more to own than rent a plane and more than my mortgage. Now even if you get your hourly rate down from $60/hr to $40/hr, if you fly 200 hours it is still $8,000. Of course gas at $4.50 is a killer.

The time you save by just renting verses all the time you will take to buy, own and maintain your own plane, you could just many be work more and make more money to pay for gas?

Liability of owning. Besides insurance there are the unknown engine problems or avionics issue that can cost $100 or $10,000. I have been lucky in that planes I have owned never made me suffer catastrophic unexpected cost. All of them I flew quite a bit and sold for more than I paid. Keep in mind, I put money into them, so I did not really make money per say, just that I did not take a hit selling. The main expendables are oil, oil filters, brakes and tires.

Still it was not free to own and fly, just cheaper than renting, but only on an hourly basis and because I flew a lot. Due to fixed cost of hanger/tie-down, insurance, inspections and loan interest if you took a loan out, you have to spread those cost out over many hours. If you're a renter and don't fly it cost you ZERO (or some nominal club fee). If you own it, your cost will be $300 or $400 every month at least to pay for fixed cost, fly or not. So what is $400 divided by ZERO hours? Infinity cost.

May be find a club or start your own with partners? It take the liability down and spreads the fixed cost.

With that said there is nothing like flying your own plane. The availability and pride of ownership is nice. The Piper T-hawk is nice. The price was low on Tomahawks, but now they most planes, prices have gone up. The Piper Tri-Pacer is also a nice time builder. I saw a Cherokee 140 for sale.