T

TThurston

Well Known Member
After I finished my local flight a couple of days ago in a rental Diamond DA20, I saw a Remos LSA in a nearby hanger with the cowling off. Although I have the RV-9 preview plans, I'd just about decided that I want to build an RV-12. So I headed across to chat about the plane and what-not.

I'd met the owner of the Remos a few months ago. He was out of town, but his son was there. He's a pretty new pilot, with only about 90 hours. He said he's very happy with the plane for local flying. It sound like the performance is a bit less than the DA20 I've been flying, and a bit less than the RV-12 as well. The plane has about 300 hours, and the local A&P was just starting the annual inspection.

After chatting with the owner's son, we walked over to the plane, and I asked the mechanic if he'd mind if I ask a few questions. He was willing to talk, so I asked what he thought of the plane and the Rotax engine. I was quite surprized by what he said. He was very critical of the plane and engine. He said they cut corners everywhere to make things cheap and light. He showed me the oil cooler sitting on the ground next to the engine. "See this?", he said. "The bracket broke at 300 hours from normal vibrations. It just a piece of bent metal - no reinforcement, no structure." His comments indicated that he felt like that was an example of the entire engine and plane. He seemed to think that a pilot would do far better to buy a used 172 for half the price.

But he wasn't just critical of the Remos LSA. I asked what he thought of the plane I was flying, the Diamond DA20. He didn't like it, even though he's done work on them for the local flight school a fleet of DA20's with probably the highest flight hours anywhere. He said it's not a real plane. In fact, he called it a home-built from a factory. He even said pretty much the same things about Cirrus - home-built planes from a factory that cost a half million dollars - non-standard parts that a prone to fail, and then are extremely expensive to replace.

Well after all this, I asked him about RV's. He's familiar with two RV-6A's in the local hangar complex. One of them he said was awful. Bad rivet work, etc. The other RV-6 he said was probably okay. But he said the problem with kit planes is that people buy the kits and then start building. He said you'd be far better off to attend a serious builder course (not just a quickie classs), so that you really knew what you were doing. And he recomended a series of regular inspections by an A&P to verify good workmanship throughout the build. (I understand that other countries require these inspections.)

Another thing he criticized was the lack of crash protection structure in most planes. He pointed to the Piper behind us, and said that it was designed to deform in a crash so as to protect the occupants. He also suggested that all the LSA's were so light that they really weren't safe for anything but local fair-weather flying.

It was an interesting 15 or 20 minutes chatting with this fellow - very strong opinions, but as a 3rd generation flyer and mechanic, a reasonably well-informed opinion.

Anyway I have a few questions:

1. Are Rotax engines and parts really as skimpy as he suggested?

2. Are LSA's just too light to be safe for anything other than fair weather local flights?

3. What constitutes a serious builder course? Should it really be required?

4. And what about regular inspections during build? How do I know that the EAA techincal counselor has the needed expertise? There was a recent thread regarding having a second set of eyes for annual inspections, and I think I read that DR has an A&P for his inspections.

5. Regarding local expertise, there are no local finished RV-12's. The most similar local planes finished would be Zenith LSA. And the last one of those crashed and burned. How do you find a set of eyes to examine your work that you know will see what needs to be seen? (Scott Schmitt is a local RV-12 builder that has a wonderful RV-10 that he built. Does this mean that he or someone like him will see what needs to be seen?)

6. Anything else I should take away from this chat?
 
My advice is to take nothing from the conversation.

One thing aviation has too many of are opinions. Most offer them without you asking but you seem to be searching for them. At this rate if you do build an airplane it will have 2 jet engines, 4 electrical systems, 2 fuel systems, a BRS and a roll cage.

There are some great guys in aviation but there are almost as many sour ones. Build and fly what you want using your judgment as to if it's safe or not.

Sorry to be so blunt but your conversation with 'Mr. Sunshine' shouldn't lead anyone to believe every aircraft except a 172 is a death trap.
 
My personal opinion this guy is just a crabby A&P, Does he even like airplanes???
I met a guy like this once... If it was not a Beachcraft it was a piece of junk. It is always good to have a experienced eye look over everything but come on:rolleyes:
 
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I can't really answer your questions...but I've flown a rental 172 exactly once (a nice new one) and hated it. I usually rent a DA20 and am getting checked out in a Remos...both are a blast to fly in my opinion, for production planes at least. ;) And I remember finding that both the DA20 and Remos had quite good safety records too...

I would support "he called it a home-built from a factory" on the DA20 though. It's modern, pretty and fast! :D (I think over 15kts on the 172?)
 
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Opinions

Sid Lambert said:
My advice is to take nothing from the conversation.
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Good advice. You must at least average out a number of opinions, because they will be all over the map. I really feel sorry for the customer that brought his airplane to Mr. Grumpy for an annual, it is likely to end badly. When I owned my C182, I found an A&P that loved and understood SE Cessnas, same thing with my Baron, found a Beechcraft guy that knew all the moves. Saves time, money, and frustration if you are dealing with a "production" aircraft.


John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
I am going to agree with Sid on this one myself. I would really take this guy's comments with such a huge grain of salt it would choke me on the way down. There are those types of individuals who look at change as a good thing and those who look at change as the end of the world. Sounds like this guy falls into the latter category.

So to answer the last question in your list:
TThurston said:
6. Anything else I should take away from this chat?
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I would say a skeptical eye is what you should take from this chat.

Listen to what others tell you but you alone must be the one to give weight to whether you are going to accept anyone's opinions point blank or not. I know sometimes it may sound very callous but we all should use our own brain power to come to our own conclusions after listening, evaluating, analyzing and then developing our own thoughts. Do not just rely on what someone else tells us.

If someone like this guy has an opinion that may not be what you expected, listen intently to everything he has to say. Then evaluate, to the best of your ability, the reasons for why he might say them in the manner he has. The truth is all of us have opinions about most everything we are involved in and most of those opinions are going to be based upon some outside motivating influence that is not really associated with the actual item of the opinion.

So after you evaluate what and why this guy thinks about things, put those opinions in your brain bucket in an appropriate place. And that place would be sitting right along with every other opinion you have heard on the subject. Then once you have a bucket full of opinions and you throw in some of your own experiences you will have a very good basis for developing your own opinion of the matter that will serve you well in your decision making process.

So, there is my opinion. You can put it in your bucket and decide if you will use it or not. That is for you to decide.

Good luck in your search for the airplane you desire.
 
I agree with those who say "take with a grain of salt"....everyone has opinions, and many can't support them with even a thread of evidence.

Here's how I deal with hangar opinions - ask for a reference! "Gee, that's really interesting - is it written down anyplace?" Now yes, there are occasionally correct new ideas that have not yet been documented. VERY occasionally. Most of the stuff we know about aviation to be true has already been written down. If you can't find a reliable source, then it's worth what you paid for it....

I have met many A&P's who are extremely knowledgable about everything in aviation. I also know a great number who know only what hey have been taught in school, or heard second hand.

Paul
 
Our local A&P/IA had similar opinions about homebuilts (although he kept them to himself) until he had the opportunity to examine a few local RVs. Keep in mind that, as a first-time homebuilder, I'm sure I made some boo-boos in the construction that are obvious to anyone with experience. However, all are cosmetic and none compromises safety. With a few cosmetic exceptions in the cockpit, N8RV is just a stock Van's design.

By the time this mechanic had a chance to walk around my plane, he'd had more exposure to the other RVs and just grinned like a monkey. It was a treat for him to see a clean installation, not the grime-covered, oil-soaked engine compartments he's used to seeing.

He admitted that he used to hold homebuilts in low esteem until he'd seen the innards of a few. Now, I think he realizes that mere mortals are capable of following directions and riveting metal competently.

I'm sure that, as an A&P, he's still skeptical that we mere mortals can install an engine and keep it running, but he knows that we're also not afraid to ask for help when needed.

That mechanic may indeed be a sourpuss, but he may also just not have enough exposure to well-built homebuilts like the rest of us see regularly at fly-ins.
 
Lot's of great comments on this topic. Sometimes the "old guys" are perceived as curmudgeons because they don't do a very good job of explaining themselves, especially as they see themselves overtaken by some of the rapidly-changing and sometimes unproven technologies around them. They fell left out. As an example, there is no doubt that we will see many changes to the fleet of new LSA's as they accrue more time on the fleet. Instead of criticizing, I encourage the knowledgeable and experienced ones to make certain they are helping to "write it down", as Paul says. Turn in service difficulty reports if applicable (e.g. Cirrus), or contact the manufacturere of the LSA's, especially if they are seeing multiple failures of the same parts. Contribute to being part of the solution instead of pointing out the failures. I have found that most of the time (there are exceptions) if they are made to feel included as part of the changing environment they will more likely get on board sooner, and we really all benefit from their experience.

Vic
 
Just had to say this...

I thought A & P was a grocery store! Maybe this guy was the head bagger.
 
I find it pretty easy to criticize just about any airplane I am really familiar with. There are weak spots in almost every design. I have the VS mount from a Tomahawk that I like to show people who knock homebuilts. The Tomahawk mount of course also mounts the HS and must be replaced every 2000 hours, IIRC. I show the mounts from an RV-9 and let them compare.

If you only look at the weak points, you will be very critical. This guy obviously builds a case on those areas he feels are lacking. It is up to us as builders to give guys like this as little ammunition as possible--good workmanship, good hardware, and no corner-cutting. Personally, I listen to A&Ps when they find something amiss. They usually have a point. I just try to sort it out from the prejudice that is sometimes all too obvious. Don't take everything seriously.

Bob Kelly
 
I'm a relatively young(er) guy in this business than most and so I always enjoy listening to the older guys that have something informative to share. But let's be frank --- in the course of building an airplane you will have lots and lots of opinions from know-it-alls.

At a family event my brother's ex-wife's uncle (yeah, stay with me here) is Cessna pilot (nothing wrong with that) and when he found out I was building an RV he started talking about how unsafe and crazy I was for building one. I asked him a few rudimentary questions about RVs and as I had already guessed he knew nothing at all about them. He thought they were all fiberglass. He thought they all used auto-conversions.

Even A&Ps have told me things that were absolutely dead wrong. The most notable example I have shared here before, which was when one of them insisted on 0.041 safety wire on my prop when I had 0.032 installed (which is what the Hartzell installation manual calls for). I had another A&P tell me that to grease my prop I should inject grease on one side of the hub until clean grease started coming from the other side of the hub. That too is wrong, even though I've probably seen three or four people do it that way.
 
I spent 5000 hours behind Continentals and Lycomings and was prepared not to like the Rotax 912. Fortunately my mind was open enough to get over that - almost instantly. Since then I have been flying behind the 912 for 3 years, have been to the Rotax courses and have gone through one from end to end. It is a good, precision, reliable engine.

You will always find those whose minds are made up and closed. My neighbor bad mouths the 912 at every opportunity but has never flown one. He has, however, heard a lot of second hand gossip about them. He's also a long time RV builder but his opinion is that the RV-12 is not a real RV. There will be no changing his opinion, I don't even try.

As others have said, keep an open mind. Ask questions of those with first hand experience. Come to your own conclusions and decisions.
 
The only plane that ever gave me a real scare was a 172. Right rear tire went flat in flight. Interesting landing.
 
C'mon admit it, you all know real airplanes are wrapped in linen (like that cowboy in Laredo).
 
Find it Fix it

Thats what I do. Any airplane I am familiar with, I can usually go and find some common issue. That my job and I am happy to do it. Some aircraft require more maintenance than others. (better for my pocketbook). Take care of your equipment and it will take care of you. And as for built light, go have a look at an A-Star.
Andrew
-9 preview
AP IA
23 years structures
 
Y'know....

...I often tell folks as they age, to guard themselves against cynicism.
Too many folk, like this guy, only see the glass as half-empty....a troubling attitude that all too often accompanies old age.

Right on here, I know A@P's and IA's like Brian Wallis, Ray Lawrence at KOKZ, who love RV's and builders. They'll annual anything, even scary 172's:) These are the people who get my business.

A gent in Springfield, Ga, Swaid Rahn, takes care of UPS's fleet of caravans and annuals my Air Tractor, while it's sitting next to a turbine Lancair he's working on. Upbeat and positive are the kinda folk I find,

Best,
 
inspections

This guy is definitely a bit off the rails, but to take something positive from his comments I would say that the suggestion for multiple inspections during homebuilt construction is a good one. I've seen a few homebuilts that were dangerously defective (one is now scrap metal; none were RVs).

This is what the EAA technical counselor program is for. More broadly, there is a large community of other builder who often serve the same role in a less formal way. As the saying goes, "no one builds an airplane alone" (well almost). The common factor in the defective homebuilts I've seen has been an stubborn unwillingness to listen to advice from fellow builders/TCs.

A&Ps can also provide good advice, but its perhaps important to keep in mind that they have been trained to maintain airplanes, not build them.
 
He said 'homebuilt from a factory' like it was a bad thing? I've often thought that the RV design was as close to a factory built airplane as I could find. They are really as simple as a Piper Cherokee. If there is one with bad rivet work, well then that is that... it can be downright scary.

Rotax engines? I tend to agree that they are a lightweight, fragile engine compared to a lyc. I'd take one of the lightweight 0-200's, a Jabaru, or a Rotex (radial) over the Rotax.

As for the Remos, from what I've seen, they are ok. Some of these 'certified factory' light sports are NOT. Some are downright scary! I saw one composite one that had the composite wing skin FLOXED to the spar, no layups at all! One good birdstrike and you'd be dead.... I wouldn't have gotten into that thing for a million dollars.
 
I'm like Jamie (Painter)...same experiences. It's always a bit amusing how many pilots out there know very little about experimentals but they'll tell you how unsafe they are.

As for the OP's questions, I can answer the first one based off of 4 years of experience with a Rotax 912. I loved that engine. Well, OK, I didn't "Love" it, but it was a fantastic engine. It was very reliable, smooth, quiet, modern, and best of all it was liquid cooled. I never had a problem with it in 4 years.
 
As an A&P myself I take offense of the narrow minded opinions made by that A&P. somebody used the word Crappy. I will add Unhappy too!
 
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I will say this... Most "BUILDERS" of experimental RV aircraft perform basic condition inspections every few months, we love to work on our planes. We find small items, sometime bigger items through out the year and deal with them ASAP. I've been in the flight school arena, owned spam cans that went through 100 hrs and annuals... it's a different world. A&P's have there place, but MOST don't understand the experimental world. Most BUILDERS are pretty anal when it come to maintaining their aircraft. Nuff said here... :D
 
LifeofReiley said:
I will say this... Most "BUILDERS" of experimental RV aircraft perform basic condition inspections every few months, we love to work on our planes. We find small items, sometime bigger items through out the year and deal with them ASAP. I've been in the flight school arena, owned spam cans that went through 100 hrs and annuals... it's a different world. A&P's have there place, but MOST don't understand the experimental world. Most BUILDERS are pretty anal when it come to maintaining their aircraft. Nuff said here... :D
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Amen!!!! A&P's have no clue of the Experimental world, dont know how to approach the aircaft certification, his powers over it (none) and actually pervceive the industry and certification as a foe. I seen A&P's trying to ground experimental aircraft thinking they had to comply with fully certified aircraft..

Granted...When I was a practicing A&P pro 15 years ago, I used to see a lot better craftmanship than what I see today from the home builders arena....you may not like what I will say, but more professional inspections shall be made in within different task while completing your home built. Specially for the first timer.... (OK, I am ready for some abuse)

RV VANS bulider/owners are excellent builders and have an excellent support system. If you have a problem, question...you have lots of people with lots of experience to ask.... but I have seen other kit brand put together with very questionable practices...scary!!!!
 
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