pierre smith

Well Known Member
Hi everybody,
Yesterday I was at 8500 feet from Daytona to Georgia indicating 177 MPH at full throttle and 50 degree OAT. That trued out to 204 MPH in my 6A with the 0-360 turning 2700 RPM with the three-bladed Catto which Craig pitched for max speed. I believe that my airspeed is pretty accurate but does anybody else see that kinda speed in a 6A. She only weighs 1046 lbs and I was solo with full fuel.

Craig told us earlier that with the prop pitched for max speed and we turn it 2700 we should see better than Van's advertized speed. Anybody else also this fast??
Pierre
 
I couldn't help notice that your empty weight is less than 1100#. My -6 has an empty weight of 1019#, modified O-320, Catto 3-blade. My TAS at 2725 rpm, WOT, 8000' is 201 mph. And my prop is pitched for CLIMB.
Mel...DAR
 
o-320 mods

Mel,
I have a RV-6A with a O-320 and I'm looking at trying to squeese some extra HP ,trying to see what some of the options might be..Might I ask what some of your mod's might be ??
Thank's for the info
Bob
 
As long as the engines are turning that kinda RPM, your putting out enough power to go that fast. Doesn't matter where it's pitched if at WOT you are turning between 2700-2800. You didn't say if you were at WOT Mel.

BTW that is pretty freakin fast for a -6, one I know of only gets about 160 IAS with a O-320 and a climb catto 3-blade, but he can't get WOT and restricts his RPM to 2700.
 
Bob,
My mods include 9.5:1 pistons and roller rocker arms.
To be honest, if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't go with 9.5:1 compression. The engine is not nearly as smooth. (Although the 3-blade prop brought back most of the smoothness). If you want more hp, there is no substitute for cubic inches. Problem with higher compression is you don't get the hp until you get the rpm. With fixed pitch, you don't get the rpm on takeoff where you need it. It helps, but not as much as cubic inches would.
Stephen,
Yes, that is WOT.
Mel...DAR
 
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Pierre,

What is the pitch of your prop? I have a 3 blade Catto/ RV-6/ O-360 180 HP setup. My prop is slightly underpitched (66 inches IIRC) for climb like Mel. AT 8K and WOT I true 175 kts (201 MPH) but often turn around 2800 RPM due to the under-pitched prop. So your numbers are completely believable. I believe that the Catto is the best fixed pitch prop out there.
 
204mph tas in a 6a is right on at WOT and ~2700rpm o-360 and 3 blade.
Weight in not a factor for speed unless your a real nit pick.
2 blade and a clean airframe get you to ~210
Best,
 
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204 Mph -6a

Hi Sprucemoose,
Our prop has 76" pitch/66" diameter. I was WOT and leaned and the tach showed 2700 RPM-exactly what Craig said it would. We suffer (I think) on takeoff and climb but still manage almost 2000 ft/min at 135 MPH.
Pierre
 
sprucemoose said:
Big time cheatin' for sure. Curious what the fuel burn was at that condition?

Just over 11 US gal/hr. 34 inches/ 5000 rpm. Sounds REALLY GOOOOOOD. WHOOOOSH. Ok, I'll settle down now.
:)
 
Better than Book

pierre smith said:
Hi everybody,
Yesterday I was at 8500 feet from Daytona to Georgia indicating 177 MPH at full throttle and 50 degree OAT. That trued out to 204 MPH in my 6A with the 0-360 turning 2700 RPM with the three-bladed Catto which Craig pitched for max speed. I believe that my airspeed is pretty accurate but does anybody else see that kinda speed in a 6A. She only weighs 1046 lbs and I was solo with full fuel.

Craig told us earlier that with the prop pitched for max speed and we turn it 2700 we should see better than Van's advertised speed. Anybody else also this fast?? Pierre
Amazing, a fixed gear trike going over 200 mph, that ain't shabby. Next time give also five the Baro and manifold pressure (MAP). Even fixed pitch planes should have a MAP gauge. Other wise you are only guessing at what your power is.

You where well over standard day at 50F OAT at 8,500 ft (MSL?). Std day at 8,500 ft it should be 28.7F, so you where plus +21F Std day.

My guess is your density altitude was 1,000 ft to 1,500 ft or more higher than indicated? Also wild ass guess your Map was 20-21 in-hg. So assuming Baro about 29.92, you where probably right at 75% power even at 2,700 RPM.

Van's spec for a 180HP RV-6A at 8,000' @ 75% is 197 mph, so you are doing about 5 mph better. Cool, I mean HOT! :rolleyes:

George
 
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gmcjetpilot said:
You where well over standard day at 50F OAT at 8,500 ft (MSL?). Std day at 8,500 ft it should be 28.7F, so you where plus +21F Std day.

My guess is your density altitude was 1,000 ft to 1,500 ft or more higher than indicated? Also wild ass guess your Map was 20-21 in-hg. So assuming Baro about 29.92, you where probably right at 75% power even at 2,700 RPM.

Van's spec for a 180HP RV-6A at 8,000' @ 75% is 197 mph, so you are doing about 5 mph better. Cool, I mean HOT! :rolleyes:

George

George, I need a math lesson...

I've always been curious of the math required to take numbers like MP, OAT, ALT, BARO, etc and calculate %power.

Can you share the basic equation. Would it be something you could take a simple spreadsheet and build a formula that would allow you to enter 4-5 (whatever the right number) parameters and it would spit out the %power?

For some reason, I thought you couldn't get to that directly and need a "constant table" from the engine book for your engine?

Educate me please?


Thanks in advance,
 
aadamson said:
Educate me please?
We've been trying for some time, to no avail. ;) Haha, just kidding, all in fun.

Seriously, there is such a spreadsheet for the O-360, Kevin Horton has it on his website (sorry don't have the address handy.) Also there is a whiz-wheel for computing %HP based on conditions (I have one but don't remember where I got it... maybe Sporty's?) so the %HP number is fairly easy to arrive at, with the right tools.
 
Math is Fun

Basically all the engine data comes from Lycoming in this case. The data is "empirical" from test (Dyno and flight) they did to certify the engine. However lucky for us they follow a predictable trends and relationships.


LYCOMING POWER DATA:

Lycoming presents the data in two forms a table for a few set of spacific percentage power, usually 55%, 65% and 75%. This is useful and you can just read it right off the table and do some interpolation in between. These are not great because they only standard DAY conditions (temps) and a few spacific power settings. It is a good tool in the cockpit.

The other method Lycoming presents the data (Usually found in the Lycoming operators manual you can purchase) is a thing engineers called a Nomogram. A may recall seeing one. It has a series of curves on one chart that projects over to another chart with curves. Knowing the biggies, RPM, MAP, OAT you can calculate percentage power and fuel flow. It works backwards and knowing enough "Unknowns" you can solve for the knows. It is very accurate and has corrections for "Non standard" day temps. However it is cumbersome to follow the plot and read it, especially in a plane. If you are a solo pilot I would not go head down that long.

This key reprint shows the two types:
Lycoming Power Chat and nomagram

Also related:
Reading Lycoming power tables


STANDARD ATMOSPHERE, DENSITY ALTITUDE AND TRUE AIRSPEED

As far as atmosphere, there is basic "altimetry ". Which most pilots are exposed to in basic training: Pressure Altitude and Density altitude for example. Most Private pilots don't get into the formulas and physics of the atmosphere. All they do is go into their E6B or aviation calculator and enter the needed "knowns" to get the solution. We all should have been exposed to calculating density altitude. There are formulas to calculate standard atmosphere and corrections. Properties like barometric pressure, pressure altitude, temp and humidity are usually needed. We usually omit humidity in our calculations, but it does affect air density. (Wet air is less dense right). Humidity has a smaller effect than temp and pressure.

The other think we should know how to get TAS, true airspeed. Again most just input indicated airspeed, Baro and temp and the answer pops out the E6B. There are formulas for this also, but most pilots just use a E6B "computer" (circular slide rule or electronic) which is programed with the equation.

Where are the formulas for true airspeed or density altitude? They are in basic aerodynamic text books or on the web. There is a thing called "Standard Atmosphere" which engineers and scientist use as a bench mark. Its a basic model of the atmosphere. Every thing comes off that "STANDARD". There are formulas for standard atmosphere, TAS and density altitude.

Any data can be fit to equations, some data better than others.


SPREAD SHEETS

Now Kevin Horton's engine power spread sheet is cool. He is a clever devil. I have it, and I recall he used the tabular data from Lycoming and does a "Data Look-up". The Excel program takes a table of data (matrix) and "interpolates" the table or tables for the answer. I have a HP IPaq, a hand-held computer that uses MS Pocket PC software and has a Excel spread sheet program. Frankly I have the standard power settings memorized for the few power settings I use most of the time. I only care I am below 75% power. Most of the time I just set a standard setting RPM/MAP like 25/25 for climb. With spread sheets it is easy to just dump the Lycoming data in and have it look it up. If you have a simple programmable calculator a formula is better.

There are no official formulas for calculating percent engine power but it would be easy to come up with some. You just take the curves that Lycoming provides and "CURVE FIT" them to an equation. You can fit them to differnt type equations, such as a logarithmic or polynomials. It gets a little complicated because you have RPM/MAP/ALTITUDE/TEMP. The output would be HP and Fuel Flow.

There is engineering software that will do this curve fitting, like Mathematica, or you can do it manually with some basic calculus and iteration. You would probably get a good "FIT" and correlation but it would be approximate. May be 1% off. Close enough. I don't care enough to do that. I much prefer to make a little laminated card with the tabular 55%, 65% and 75% power and have that tucked away on the side of needed.

I have my own spread sheets that calculate engine power, standard atmosphere, corrections to standard day conditions, total drag and propeller efficiency. You can write your own. It is easy.


Pierre's DATA

As far as Pierre's data he left out the Barometric pressure setting and Manifold pressure, so I made some assumptions. I assumed the pressure was 29.92. I know his density altitude was about 9,800 ft with the data he provided, 8,500 ft indicated and 50F OAT. I also assumed that his manifold pressure was about equal to the local atmospheric pressure to -0.50" hg under those flight conditions, or about 20.6 to 21.1 inches hg. That is why it is important to include all the parameters, other wise its a guess. However his data correlates well with the known performance, so his numbers and my guesstimates are in the ball park.



Hope this answers your questions. If you want to learn more about standard atmosphere, aerodynamics or curve fitting just google it.


George
 
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Thanks

Thanks George, that is what I thought... I have the book on my IO-540 in the my 182, was just curious if there was a way to mathematically calculate %power without the "lookup tables". I go do some reading. Thanks again!
 
198 mph RV-6A

pierre smith said:
Hi everybody,
Yesterday I was at 8500 feet from Daytona to Georgia indicating 177 MPH at full throttle and 50 degree OAT. That trued out to 204 MPH in my 6A with the 0-360 turning 2700 RPM with the three-bladed Catto which Craig pitched for max speed. I believe that my airspeed is pretty accurate but does anybody else see that kinda speed in a 6A. She only weighs 1046 lbs and I was solo with full fuel.

Craig told us earlier that with the prop pitched for max speed and we turn it 2700 we should see better than Van's advertized speed. Anybody else also this fast??
Pierre

Not 204, but getting close. Specs: WOT@7500 FT, 9000 FT DA, 50 deg ROP, O-320 w/9.2:1 CR, EMag, carb, Sensenich 81" pitch, 62 deg OAT, 2500 RPM, 24" MP, 29.87" mercury. This is more than 75% power due to 1" of manifold pressure 'supercharging'. 3-way GPS reads 198mph. Should be able to tweak this over 200 with a few aero mods. Very happy with cruise performance. 1041 Lbs with paint & interior.

Kelly Patterson
39.2 hours
RV-6A N716K
PHX,AZ