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I was wondering is anyone else out there flying a rv4 with io360 and constant speed prop.I really enjoy this combo,although heavy by-4 standards at 1032 empty wt.
 
I have a friend with that combo. 1032# is not that heavy but I think the 180 HP IO-360 would be a better choice.
 
why to you think the 180 is a better choice,other than the obvious custom cowl work needed.i know the 200 is slightly heavier.The hot starting of the fuel injection in my expierence isnt that difficult,doubt much gain in cruise with 200(165 to 170kt), but the climb performance with 20 more hp that might be a whole different story?
 
My -4 weighed in at 1080 pounds with a 180 HP O-360 and Hartzell C.S. prop. It would climb 2000+ fpm solo and cruise at 170 KTAS.

It was very heavy in pitch when flying solo though. Im not sure how much the weight goes up with the 200 HP.
 
Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't turn down an angle valve -4 but if I were building I'd do a parallel. Maybe even the IO-375 with 195 HP and a composite prop. I just think the cowl spacing with the angle is so tight it has potential heat problems. Vapor lock and high engine temps come to mind.

Just fly the wings off of it and don't worry about what others think! :)
 
i purchased my -4 in arizona were engine ran at normal temps.Upon returning home to the n eastern us,engine ran on cool side needed to install deflectors-restictors in air inlets to bring temps up.Just the opposite of my previous plane tcraft bc12d on edo 1320's calm day full load the little a65 continal would sometimes get a little warm.Somedays lucky to get 300fpm:eek:,now with a no wind full load always 1500+fpm:D.
 
My -4 weighed in at 1080 pounds with a 180 HP O-360 and Hartzell C.S. prop. It would climb 2000+ fpm solo and cruise at 170 KTAS.

It was very heavy in pitch when flying solo though. Im not sure how much the weight goes up with the 200 HP.

My RV4 has an O320 160hp with Hartzel CS prop, empty weight of 1025, and easily cruises at 170kts TAS and 2000 fpm climb solo. I originally was looking for an O360 180hp RV4 and have not been disappointed in the 160hp. I guess the extra hp is needed for the extra weight not to mention the added forward CG.
 
I have the angle valve A1A IO-360 non counterweighted crank in my old -4, Sky Dynamics magnesium sump, cold air intake, MTV-15b prop. Empty waight is 1065 lb. Ground release to 4000? at a waight of 1595 pounds took 2 minuets and 5 seconds, I just did this about three weeks ago leaving Independence OR with a friend on board. Solo acro is fine and done often, I would never trade this combo.
 
How is engine different?

I have the angle valve A1A IO-360 non counterweighted crank in my old -4, Sky Dynamics magnesium sump, cold air intake, MTV-15b prop. Empty waight is 1065 lb. Ground release to 4000? at a waight of 1595 pounds took 2 minuets and 5 seconds, I just did this about three weeks ago leaving Independence OR with a friend on board. Solo acro is fine and done often, I would never trade this combo.

Hi, I have an O-360 A1A. I thought all A1As were parrallel valve until I read your post. What does the A1A signify? Thanks
 
Good question, my engine is experimental and I know because I bought the new crankcase a few years ago that the crankcase is a standard A1A type, maybe there all the same, I don?t know. What is the proper designation for this configuration? I don?t know. In 2006 we found that the crank case was cracked, I did a full O/H with new case and cylinders and my Lycoming buddy that helped me with the build said it was an A1A but being experimental he might just be using the term generically since it uses the same case, there where a lot of calls to Aero Sport Performance to determine just exactly what was in this engine to get all the right parts.
 
What's your angle?

Russ,

Having shoe-horned an angle valve IO-360 A1B6 into an RV4 I too agree it's a "tight squeeze". The better call is the IO-360 parallel valve, 9.0 or 10.0 compression, flow matching, balancing and electronic ignition. This produces the power without all the weight (and size). The only down side is a non-counterweighted crank and smaller main bearings.

To answer the question on Lycoming designations, here is a blurb from Sac Sky Ranch's website.

Smokey
HR2

What is the difference between one Lycoming engine model and another

The "Same Engine" Myth

Questions that frequently are asked of Lycoming sales personnel, engineers, and technical representatives indicate that there is a myth regarding Lycoming piston engines. This myth seems to be prevalent among aircraft owners and aviation writers. In the minds of these individuals, each Lycoming engine series is essentially the same. For example, all 360 cubic inch displacement engines are inherently the same except for differences in fuel metering or turbocharging. The idea that these engines are the same is false. A few specific examples may help to put this myth to rest.

Lycoming builds 0-320 engines that produce 150 HP or 160 HP. The 150 HP O-320-E series engines operate at a compression ratio of 7.0:1. The 0-320-D series has high compression pistons which raise the compression ratio to 8.5:1, and increase rated output to 160 HP. Those who believe that the pistons are the only difference in these engines will be disappointed when they plan to upgrade their 0-320-E to the higher horsepower by simply changing pistons. Many models in the 0-320-E series were designed for the purpose of keeping the cost down. Thousands of these low compression engines were built with plain steel cylinder barrels instead of the Nitrided barrels used in the 0-320-D series engines. They also had two narrow bearings instead of one long front main bearing. The engines were certified at 150 HP and were not intended to withstand the additional stress of higher horsepower.

Because of the similarity in designation, it would be easy to believe that the 0-360-AlA and the I0-360-A1A are the same engine except that the first engine has a carburetor and the second a fuel injection system. Here are some features of each engine for comparison. The 0-360-AlA has a bottom mounted updraft carburetor, parallel valves, 8.5:1 compression ratio, and produces 180 HP. The IO-360-AlA features a horizontal front mounted fuel injector, angle valves, 8.7:1 compression ratio, and is rated at 200 HP. The I0-360-A1A also incorporates these design items which are not included in the 0-360: piston cooling nozzles, stronger crankshaft, tongue and groove connecting rods with stretch bolts, tuned intake system, and rotator type intake valves. There are actually few similarities except for the 360 cubic inch displacement.

There are individuals who have suggested that by putting 10:1 compression ratio pistons in an I0-360 engine, it could be the same as the HIO-360-D1A. These are some characteristics of the HI0-360-D1A helicopter engine that can be compared with the data on the I0-360 listed in the previous paragraph. To start, the HIO has conical rather than dynafocal mounts. The main bearing is a thick wall bearing instead of the thin wall, high crush bearing used in the I0-360. Other differences include: crankshaft designed for small crankpins, high speed camshaft, rear mounted RSA7AA1 fuel injector, large intake valves, and torsional vibration damper magneto drives.

Finally both the Navajo engines and the new turbocharged Lycoming used in the Mooney TLS are equipped with differential and density controllers that automatically set the maximum allowable horsepower when the throttle is advanced fully for takeoff. Some who have not taken the time to compare these engines have jumped to the conclusion that the TI0-540-AF1A which powers the Mooney TLS is simply a de-rated Navajo engine. This conclusion could hardly be more inaccurate. The most obvious difference, even to the complete novice can be seen by looking at the rocker box covers. The TI0-540-AF1A is rated at 270 HP and has parallel valve down exhaust cylinders. The Navajo series has three engines at 310 HP, 325 HP, and 350 HP. All have cylinders designed with up exhaust and angle valves. Other differences respectively in the 270 HP AF1A and the Navajo series engines are: small main bearing instead of large main bearing, 8.0:1 compression ratio rather than 7.3:1, intercooled and non-intercooled, pressurized Slick magnetos versus Bendix/TCM magnetos, and an RSA5AD1 fuel injector in place of the RSA10AD1 injector. There are some other differences, but those comparisons listed should convince even the most skeptical that these engines are vastly different.

By making comparisons of various parts and accessories used in engine models which some individuals have considered to be much the same, it is possible to illustrate the differences. Although some Lycoming models are closely related, this cannot be assumed. A review of the engineering parts list for each engine model by a knowledgeable individual is the only sure way of establishing similarities and differences. For those who may have been taken in by the myth that all Lycoming engines of a particular displacement are very much the same, you are now armed with a better knowledge of this subject.
 
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My old RV4 utilized a Lyc O-360-A1A (parallel valve, 180HP), but was converted to fuel injection, flow balanced, and fitted with 9:1 pistons and LSE Plasma-II ignition. That brought it up to 205HP.

With a fixed pitch prop, it balanced perfectly at 1025 pounds. I could climb with, or out climb any CS prop out there. Just keep the airspeed and RPM up.
 
"The IO-360-AlA features a horizontal front mounted fuel injector, angle valves, 8.7:1 compression ratio, and is rated at 200 HP. The I0-360-A1A also incorporates these design items which are not included in the 0-360: piston cooling nozzles, stronger crankshaft, tongue and groove connecting rods with stretch bolts, tuned intake system, and rotator type intake valves. There are actually few similarities except for the 360 cubic inch displacement"

Hi Smokey, this describes what I have exactly, Your right, if I was going to build a new -4 I would not use this engine but only because of the work to get installed, since I already have it and it seems perfect in every way I would never trade it.

As for waight and C of G mine is 61.67" aft of the datum with full fuel and solo, this works fine for acro (but may be further forward then others??) however I can get quite a load in it, With two 250lb people and full fuel she ways 1766.25 lbs and is 66.67" aft of the datum, if we then burn the fuel down to 5 gallons she ways 1604.25 lbs and is at 67.34" aft of the datum, if you all don?t know the C of G range is 58.7 to 67.4. It would seem to me that gross was set more buy the aft C of G then the structural ability, my gross is set at 1750 lbs, -4s that have 150/60 hp and wood prop and light starter probably need a much lower gross because of there more aft C of G there for much more limited for two up / cross country / baggage.
 
I personally am going to try to get an Angle valve in my. It flows better at high RPM's which is where it'll shine if I ever get into the cross country racing. I hope to have the slickest IO-320 -4 out there :)

Oh yeah, didn't mention the IO-320 part huh?

Yeah the angle valve is a bit heavier, but flows better at high RPM's (above 2500). If you spend most of your time below that, there is no advantage. The IO-320 angle valve heads are now becoming available through ECI, and I'm planning on going that route!
 
the io360 is a snug fit,although previous owner of my -4 had an io360 turbo under the cowl for a period of time i believe they ran into some heat problems,possibly some boost problems also if my memory serves me.
 
I have flown 2 RV4's with angle valves. Both were beaten in cruise by 160HP 4's. Climb was hardly better. Fuel consumption was higher, TO distance longer. I would only do it for kicks if I had the engine already.
 
I have flown 2 RV4's with angle valves. Both were beaten in cruise by 160HP 4's. Climb was hardly better. Fuel consumption was higher, TO distance longer. I would only do it for kicks if I had the engine already.

Something must have been very wrong with what you where doing or the aircraft you where flying! Did these 200hp -4s have CS props, and what prop? I smoke every 160 and 180hp RV-4s and other RVs that I have run up against both in speed and climb, on cross country flights along with my Dad’s 160 hp -4, I always get there first and take 2 to 4 gallons less fuel, him flying at 8 to 10 k me flying at 12 to 15k.

Mine is a little bit special in having a cold air intake and a light sump but I doubt that makes much difference, where talking a 40hp advantage = 25% advantage and in my case against my Dad’s -4 I have a 10% weight disadvantage.

Your observations don’t add up unless these planes you where flying weighed 1200lb empty and the 160hp plane actually had more like 180hp and weighed under 1000lb, this might work.

My take off distance is also much much shorter, especialy at high altitudes.
 
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These were both beat by a 160 CS Ellison injected 4 slider Built by John Haehn. Joe Lodato owned one of 200hp's, I don't remember the other owner. Yes, I'm sure they were heavy & john is light. I dunno.
 
don't add up?

Your observations don?t add up unless these planes you where flying weighed 1200lb empty and the 160hp plane actually had more like 180hp and weighed under 1000lb, this might work.



If you search this forum for SARL race results I think you might find that a 360cid RV-4 has never ( best I can recall ) beat a 320 RV-4. You won't do better than a light airframe and a 320 engine in my opinion. There was a pretty fast 360 cid RV-4 in the race at Wennatchie earlier this month. It ran pretty close to a glass air. I find alot of the above meaningless unless there is some documented proof. I would like to see some of these 200hp planes run in a race sometime.

CM
 
If you search this forum for SARL race results I think you might find that a 360cid RV-4 has never ( best I can recall ) beat a 320 RV-4. You won't do better than a light airframe and a 320 engine in my opinion. There was a pretty fast 360 cid RV-4 in the race at Wennatchie earlier this month. It ran pretty close to a glass air. I find alot of the above meaningless unless there is some documented proof. I would like to see some of these 200hp planes run in a race sometime.

CM[/QUOTE]

There are many variables involved in cross country races, I have only gone head to head with the RVs I have bested witch is the only way to see what?s what and it?s never been any contest whatsoever. Check out the name Dave Anders to see what a 360 CID RV-4 can be capable of, his record may never be beat, I haven?t heard that there has even been an attempt at beating his record.
 
Ander's RV-4

I saw Dave Ander's RV-4 at Dayton a few years ago staging for the AirVenture Cup. Its a beautiful airplane and is in a class of its own. I would call it highly modified at a minimum.

I would still love to see some 200hp RV-4's run some races so we can see if they really are that fast. Its like the fast Swift guys, alot of talk but nothing to back it up.

I am just goading you guys.... hoping you will come out and race.

CM
 
I was set to try the race in Wenatchee WA tell I saw them harping about insurance being required, I don?t keep insurance and have already saved enough buy no insuring to buy a new prop and engine O/H, that?s just in 5 years. Insurance is a whole other subject, the short story is I won?t give them my money and so I guess I can?t race.
 
Ditto on the Insurance

I was set to try the race in Wenatchee WA tell I saw them harping about insurance being required, I don?t keep insurance and have already saved enough buy no insuring to buy a new prop and engine O/H, that?s just in 5 years. Insurance is a whole other subject, the short story is I won?t give them my money and so I guess I can?t race.

That is why I didn't go. I suppose I will have to buy some at some point if I want to race.

H
 
My RV-4 (which I bought whole in 2006) has an angle-valve IO-360 w/ 10:1 pistons and Hartzell CS prop. I just got through doing a top overhaul including new NFS pistons (still 10:1) with skirt and crown coatings, gapless piston rings, and a straight-bore (no taper) cylinder grind. The 10:1 pistons should yield about 220 HP. I figure the other mods should give about 10-20 HP for a total of 230-240 HP.

I flew it for the first time (post-overhaul) yesterday. The rings aren't seated yet but I was able to see some preliminary numbers during a couple of hours of high power cruise. At 5500' and WOT (about 24' MP) and 2500 RPM, I got just about 180 knots TAS. My plane is far from the most aerodynamic one out there. In fact, it's a little on the rough side in my estimation. I don't really know how those numbers compare to other RV-4s, though.

I wasn't able to get a good test of the post-overhaul climb. I was getting about 2100-2200 FPM at sea level and max power before; sometimes up to about 2500 FPM.

Again, I don't have enough experience in other RVs to compare my plane's performance. All I can say is that I love the way my RV-4 climbs and cruises. I don't think the flying qualities have been badly hurt either. If I was building an RV-4, I would choose a high-power engine and CS prop.

Hope this helps.
 
Lighter is better...

Kevin,

I have been blessed to fly "alot" of RV's, mainly RV4's over the past 20 years and now my HR2 almost a thousand hours. They have run the gamut from 135HP 0-290's to Ly-Con IO-360's and the bottom line is: I liked all of them!

The best though in my humble opinion is the light, 0-320/wood prop version (the way Van designed it) for pure fun, aerobatics, dog-fighting and landing on short grass strips, the whole reason I built an RV4 in the first place. Racing leagues are fine if that's your bag. To make it interesting though, they should have defensive "fighters" posted along their route to contend with and launch and recover from a 1200' grass strip!

Smokey
HR2


Building an RV4, $21,000 1995 dollars, Re-building an HR2, well over twice that amount, seeing 800 Knots indicated at 500 feet AGL in a very cool airplane, priceless!
 
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Mine is an O-360

What Smokeyray said.

I have a -4 with an O-360 A1D (180 hp) out of a Mooney with a Catto FP prop. It is great. And fast. I am the one that was at the Wenatchee race, my speed around the course, including the climbs and dives for terrain and going outside the Glassair RG in turn one was 210.19 MPH. I think it will do about 215 in level flight, although I have seen a little faster than that on the TAS indicator (AFS) occasionally in level flight. I don't think it would be faster with an O-320. And I think it wouldn't handle as well with a parallel valve O-360 200 hp due to weight. It might go faster if it could be the same drag or less, of course. It probably would not climb as well due to weight. I can run away from the only RV-4 powered with a 200 hp engine that I have flown next to.

My understanding is that a parallel valve O-360 is about 17 lb heavier than an O-320 similarly equiped. So, don't put on a constant speed prop and save about 20 lb.

I guess I don't understand the problem with insurance since if you get liability only it only costs about $320 per year for $1,000,000. If you get hull, it is 10 times that much.

I am comfortable with short strips in it, and at gross weight (or a little over) with my wife and baggage it still climbs at over 2000 ft/min). It weighs 975. In short, I love this airplane. O-320, O-360 probably doesn't matter much for fun quotient. If you want to go fast, and climb faster, probably an O-360. Just remember, if you throw something up in the air and it falls, if it is not absolutely necessary, don't put it in the airplane. Build in lightness and you will be much happier.
 
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io 360 cs prop

I figure when i get the float rigging figuered out for some pk 2250 amphibs the 200 horses ought to be good for a couple decent size moose quarters;)
 
Racing is just one fun thing to do with an RV

I am sure most of the RV's could do the 1200 foot strip. I know I could. That would be tough for the SX's, Lancairs, Canards, etc.

Racing is just one of the fun things to do with an RV. Thats one of the best things about the airplane. Racing, acro, formation, xc taveling, short grass strips,

CM
 
Fights On!

Chris,

Couldn't agree more although I don't meet too many RV guys who regularly land on less than 500 meters. Nice to know there are a few.

You left out my favorite though, Dogfighting!

Smokey
HR2

Check Six...:)