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twisted-wrench

Active Member
I'm considering rolling my own using a Lyc, angle valve 200 HP. It would certainly need a forward facing cold air sump, an new crank, dual Lightspeed 3s, and a full rebuild.

Opinions please on extras like cam oil squirters, roller cam, O-ring case, piston oil cooling or what?

I'm thinking of reducing compression to be able to use mogas so what performance enhancers would limit the loss of HP like flow matched ports, Ron Bower intake/filter, anything else??

And with all this, how to hold the price down.

TIA for any opinions.

Jack
 
io-200

Send the case to Chuck Ney in Tulsa. He has a STC for cam squirters. You can get a ECI crank new for $3800 from Airpower, sell old one on ebay.
 
Why?

Hi Jack,

Seems to me you are trying to have some extra horsepower yet retain the ability to use mogas. There is a solution. The IO-375 low compression form AeroSport Power produces 195hp has the architecture of a IO-360 Lycoming and a very similar weight. It is also a parallel valve engine not angle valve. They have a great reputation also.

Gerry.
:)
 
No mogas in IO-

I don't believe it is only the compression ratio that makes the IO-360 incompatible with mogas. In fact, I doubt the difference between 8.5:1 and 8.7:1 would put it out of range of premium mogas.

I believe the real problem is the high-pressure engine-driven fuel pump that has materials that are incompatible with mogas.

Also, the angle-valve engine has piston oil cooling standard. So keep that.
 
I do believe the angle valve is already 8:5/1 compression. And Steve is correct, already has piston cooling which shows it self in cool cylinders and warmer oil. Minimum 10 row cooler needed.
 
scsmith said:
I believe the real problem is the high-pressure engine-driven fuel pump that has materials that are incompatible with mogas.
Click to expand...

From what I understand, some automotive fuel injected engines with fuel pumps have between 40 and 100 PSI, depending on make of course.

What's the difference in those types of high pressured fuel pumps vs aircraft fuel pumps and the pressure output that would affect mogas usage? I really have no idea.

Cheers,

Don
 
8.7:1

C-FAH Q said:
I do believe the angle valve is already 8:5/1 compression. And Steve is correct, already has piston cooling which shows it self in cool cylinders and warmer oil. Minimum 10 row cooler needed.
Click to expand...

The Lycoming IO-360-A1A angle-valve engine has a compression ratio of 8.7:1.
 
no similarity with automotive fuel pumps

Don Patrick said:
From what I understand, some automotive fuel injected engines with fuel pumps have between 40 and 100 PSI, depending on make of course.

What's the difference in those types of high pressured fuel pumps vs aircraft fuel pumps and the pressure output that would affect mogas usage? I really have no idea.

Cheers,

Don
Click to expand...

It is a materials compatibility problem. The Lycoming pump is a diaphragm pump, with reed-valves. Automotive fuel-injection fuel pumps are electric motor-driven gear pumps. No similarity at all. Of course, there are (or used to be) diaphragm type automotive fuel pumps - my old Volvo 122S used one. But it was apparently made of materials that are compatible with mogas.
 
So why use an antiquated mechanical pump when its easy to build a redundant and reliable fuel system with electric pumps. An injected IO-360 will run fine on mogas.
 
rocketbob said:
So why use an antiquated mechanical pump when its easy to build a redundant and reliable fuel system with electric pumps. An injected IO-360 will run fine on mogas.
Click to expand...

I have had no luck pinning anyone down that says there doing this in the 200hp angle valve variant. Running it for cruse power yes, but no one has confirmed its use for T/O power. Are you confirming this use in the 200hp engine? I'd like to use it but don't want to be the first.

As to compatibility of the pump etc. I dont think there is a problem so much with MOGAS as there is with ethanol. Correct?
 
Why not build up a parallel valve IO-360 with the standard 8.5:1 compression? Porting, flow matching, electronic ignition, matching the exhaust to exhaust ports, etc. will get you over 200 HP and you won’t have to worry about using premium auto fuel.

You will get the power you want and save ~30 lbs.

No need to worry about the premium auto fuel thing as there will be alternatives to 100LL before that blue gold goes away.
 
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Russ McCutcheon said:
I have had no luck pinning anyone down that says there doing this in the 200hp angle valve variant. Running it for cruse power yes, but no one has confirmed its use for T/O power. Are you confirming this use in the 200hp engine? I'd like to use it but don't want to be the first.

As to compatibility of the pump etc. I dont think there is a problem so much with MOGAS as there is with ethanol. Correct?
Click to expand...

Search for posts by Frankh.
 
scsmith said:
It is a materials compatibility problem. The Lycoming pump is a diaphragm pump, with reed-valves. Automotive fuel-injection fuel pumps are electric motor-driven gear pumps. No similarity at all. Of course, there are (or used to be) diaphragm type automotive fuel pumps - my old Volvo 122S used one. But it was apparently made of materials that are compatible with mogas.
Click to expand...

Automotive electric fuel pumps have high pressure capability, but the fuel pressure is set by a fuel return regulator, after the fuel has gone thru the injector lines. Automotive injectors are electric operated valves that use pressurized fuel that is passing by the top of the injector. Unused fuel passes thru the regulator and is returned to the tank.
In other words: you set the fuel pressure return regulator for the pressure you want. In cars, it's about 35 or 40 psi.
I have automotive fuel injectors, pumps and regulator. I use a Tracy Crook injection & ingnition control. It is mogas tolerant, including ethanol.
I think Airflow Performance and other aftermarket "bolt on" injectors are also ethanol mogas tolerant, but I don't know thier details because I stay focused on what I'm running.
As for the Lycoming mechanical fuel pump, my T-18 has one, and has been fed a near steady diet of mogas for 300 hrs and 20 years. It came with a spare used pump, so it might have been changed, but no log entry....it might not care for ethanol laced mogas, but that's a slightly different issue.
 
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Returning to the original focus...

The angle valve choice makes it easy to include pendulum absorbers, often valuable if your application includes a CS metal prop. For example, my 390/Hartzell combination has no operating restrictions....zip. Think about the prop when you make those engine choices.

Check with Don to be sure, but I don't think ethanol is a concern with Airflow Performance fuel injection. AFP service is excellent.
 
Russ McCutcheon said:
I have had no luck pinning anyone down that says there doing this in the 200hp angle valve variant. Running it for cruse power yes, but no one has confirmed its use for T/O power. Are you confirming this use in the 200hp engine? I'd like to use it but don't want to be the first.

As to compatibility of the pump etc. I dont think there is a problem so much with MOGAS as there is with ethanol. Correct?
Click to expand...

Doesn't make a difference. It can be 30hp or 500hp, it will run fine on mogas. In fact it will run better on mogas. The key to mogas bliss is to set the fuel system up like frankh did and I have on my rocket. I have two checked facet pumps in series in the wing root, no fuel selector (just a tee), and a return line at the Rotec TBI that returns fuel back into the left tank. I also have a bit over 1000 hours running ethanol mogas in various RV's and generally works fine even with a stock fuel system.
 
My input to this thread is not mechanical but of a medical consideration.

There is a chance the 3rd class medical exemption proposal by EAA and AOPA before the FAA will someday be approved. The whole idea makes a lot of good sense.

For us old geezers, that and 180 HP engine would be perfect.
 
rocketbob said:
Doesn't make a difference. It can be 30hp or 500hp, it will run fine on mogas. In fact it will run better on mogas. The key to mogas bliss is to set the fuel system up like frankh did and I have on my rocket. I have two checked facet pumps in series in the wing root, no fuel selector (just a tee), and a return line at the Rotec TBI that returns fuel back into the left tank. I also have a bit over 1000 hours running ethanol mogas in various RV's and generally works fine even with a stock fuel system.
Click to expand...

So premium 91 or 92 for the 8.7 to 1 CR engine then? How bout 87 by its self or mixed with 100LL?
 
twisted-wrench said:
I'm considering rolling my own using a Lyc, angle valve 200 HP. It would certainly need a forward facing cold air sump, an new crank, dual Lightspeed 3s, and a full rebuild.

Opinions please on extras like cam oil squirters, roller cam, O-ring case, piston oil cooling or what?

I'm thinking of reducing compression to be able to use mogas so what performance enhancers would limit the loss of HP like flow matched ports, Ron Bower intake/filter, anything else??

And with all this, how to hold the price down.

TIA for any opinions.

Jack
Click to expand...

I have a low time IO360C1D6 on my RV6 which came from a Rockwel Commander 112
Installed a Superior cold air intake/sump and otherwise no changes.
Not using original Vac pump-governer-alternator-starter-various fittings
Original weight in data sheet listed as 326 lbs which with removal of above brings weight to approx 300 lbs

I preferred IO series due to larger cylinder fin cooling surface and piston oil cooling

The IO-360 series appears to be similar, in terms of weight & components, to parrallel engines of same vintage except for cylinder heads & pistons
dimensions. The difference should be 6-7 lbs per cylinder (?)

The IO 360 C1D6 has a counterweighted crankshaft which also is 15 lbs heavier than a plain crank. I also have a OI360 C1C which is the same engine with exeption that the crank is not counter-weighted. Hence this engine could be approx 385 lbs with the changes mentioned above.

My concern with using the C1D6 with a composite fixed pitch prop is the lack of inertia and possible damage of the counterweight hanger pins/bushes.
Therefore considering the use of a inertia ring (s.a. Landoll) which will add weight again.

As far as use of mogas is concerned I would not worry to much about the compression of 8.7. However the domed piston shape of the IO-series is more sensitive to detonation conditions than the flat piston of the O-series.
Btw. everybody in Europe, except commercial operations, are using 98 gas in their aircraft these days and many secondary airports do not sell LL avgas anymore. So mogas gas is probably OK but methanol is a definite "negative" due to the effect on rubber compositions and corrosion of aluminum components.

Comments wellcome (in particular regarding the inertia issue)
 
rocketbob said:
I continue to run 87 octane mogas with ethanol with zero problems.
Click to expand...

I can see myself making some fuel system changes one day so I can run the cheapest pump gas I can find! 100LL is getting to expensive and I bet its replacement will be as bad or worse!
 
It's a Gas...

scsmith said:
I don't believe it is only the compression ratio that makes the IO-360 incompatible with mogas. In fact, I doubt the difference between 8.5:1 and 8.7:1 would put it out of range of premium mogas.I believe the real problem is the high-pressure engine-driven fuel pump that has materials that are incompatible with mogas.
Click to expand...

Actually, No. There is an STC for MoGas for ALL the injected Continentals with 8.5:1 or less compression using Non-Ethanol fuel. The Bendix F.I. is the STC issue as Bendix doesn't approve it for MoGas in certified airplanes. What fuel you pump through your certified Bendix system in an RV is your business. However comma, the Silverhawk (Bendix Clone) and AFP systems are advertised as compatible.
Non-Ethanol MoGas can be found in all 50 states using the http://pure-gas.org/ website. My Dad (an IA) Ran MoGas in our family 182 for over 30 years with no issues. My RV4 also utilized it nearly 100% as well as my IO-540 powered Harmon Rocket. I currently utilize the same 91 octane Non-ethanol Mogas in my RVX purchased locally for $3.89/gal. 3000+Hours is quite a testimony...

Superior advertises MoGas compatibility in their IO-360 nomenclature using the Silverhawk F.I. The Peterson STC website http://www.autofuelstc.com/autofuelstc/pa/Approved_Engines.html has a wealth of information on the use of MoGas in numerous applications. Here is the Superior IO-360 Spec guide. Granted, this isn't the Angle Valve spec, but useful. Sadly for me, the HIO-360 angle valve has 10:1 compression and MoGas isn't recommended...

Model O-360/IO-360 Specifications/Guide
FAA Type Certified 180 horsepower Engine Series
Created from the most advanced designs and manufacturing techniques and individually
assembled by experienced engine craftsmen, the Vantage Engine® is truly The Power For
The Next Millennium
Features:
• Certified to latest FAR 33 requirements for both fixed wing and helicopter applications
• Better materials, better lubrication and better airflow mean better performance
• Computer Optimized Camshaft using Formula 1 racing software.
• Approved for 91 UL Mogas and 100LL or 91/98 Avgas
• IO-360 approved for aerobatic aircraft installation
• Standard Accessories Include: Fuel Pump, Fuel System, Magnetos, Harness, Starter,


V/R
Smokey
Dues gladly paid in Iraq...
Gladly paid to DR anyway...
 
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Hijacked

This thread has been totally hijacked! I thought it was about someone wanting to rebuild a IO-360.
 
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