[David-aviator]

I attended a seminar at OSH by Swift on their research and development of an alternative fuel for 100LL. http://www.swiftenterprises.net/Swift Fuel.html

Needless to say, there are huge challenges to bring this about but they are moving forward as the production of lead and the continued availability of 100LL becomes more and more problematic. Most of us are interested in finding an alternative fuel and getting used to using it, that's what drives an interest in doing it. We want to continue flying no matter what.

The real bug-a-boo with auto fuel is ethanol. I used mogas with ethanol for 4 years with the Subby engine without issue before switching to Lycoming, but am most hesitant to use it with the Lycoming. In my case, the unknown is what ethanol would do to the innards of the mechanical fuel pump. I do believe the rest of the system would tolerate the stuff.

The gist of this post is the complexity of manufacturing 100LL. According to the speaker at the Swift presentation, 100LL has at least 82 different ingredients. Swift fuel, which is for aviation exclusively, has 2 or 3 ingredients (I've forgotten exactly what was reported). In the testing of 100LL, they found considerable variation its composition which is no surprise. At far less than 1% of total fuel production, for the manufacturers it is an irritant more than a source of profit.

Notwithstanding all that, it is my feeling 100LL is a good reliable fuel, but it may not all be the same considering the complexity of its formulation. That may be another driving issue to get rid of it if anyone gets into testing it and reporting the findings. It is a pain in the butt to produce and transport and it contributes very little to the bottom line. It is amazing it is still available at the relatively low cost it is - not so in Europe and other parts of the world.

I do believe we should be looking at other fuels or at the very least, finding ways to use mogas safely, even with ethanol. The world is changing continuously and 100LL will be history perhaps sooner than later.

dd

PS The #1 reason ethanol is prohibited with mogas STC's is lack of formal testing. The stuff is used in millions of autos every day without issue. It could be in airplanes also if it were properly tested and fuel system materials were compatible with it. Fuel system compatibility is not that big a deal, AFP has designed their system to accommodate it. Other systems could do likewise with very little effort.

 

[frankh]

The engine doesn't care if its burning etoh or not..The mechanical fuel pump is a question that has not been addressed so far, together with the vapour locking tendancy of mechanical pumps.

I probably got 200 hours on 10% ETOH so far, without a mechanical fuel pump.

Yhe o rings need to be changed in the fuel drains which is a 2 minute job.

Frank

 

[apkp777]

Mogas with ethanol, has caused problems in automobile useage. Ever notice how many car fires on the side of the road compared to 20 years ago. Ethanol turns natural rubber (seals, gaskets) into mud, resulting in fuel leaks. Also, causes corrosion of aluminum. Also, having swallowed 2 exhaust valves in my Cherokee (once on takeoff) while running mogas, I won't touch the stuff. I am sticking with 100LL until those in the know really give us a viable alternative.

Anyway - that's just my 2 cents worth.

 

[breister]

Ethanol alone is fine for aircraft - see this article. You'll only get around 75% of the range, though.

Swift fuel is promising if and only if gas prices go back up and stay up. Great folks, we stopped in to say hi on a trip to mom's once. They are MOST promising if cheap batteries and electricity come about, because then the price of harvesting the sawgrass goes down (electric combines anyone?).

But, like all good things it requires an initial investment to create the plants - and then they need to be profitable each year to stay in business.

 

[Danny7]

Ethanol alone is fine for aircraft - see this article. You'll only get around 75% of the range, though.

Swift fuel is promising if and only if gas prices go back up and stay up. Great folks, we stopped in to say hi on a trip to mom's once. They are MOST promising if cheap batteries and electricity come about, because then the price of harvesting the sawgrass goes down (electric combines anyone?).

But, like all good things it requires an initial investment to create the plants - and then they need to be profitable each year to stay in business.

I doubt you would ever see electric combines, in any time frame. unless you get pocket nuclear power plants, then what would be the point anyway?

also, what is the point of using a combine on switchgrass/ sawgrass/ panic crops? there is no significant seed head, and you wouldn't want to separate it anyways for the majority of fuel crops. there would be seed growers, but that is typically a small percentage of harvested crops.

so for an actual harvest vehicle of panic, you'd need a Large tractor, and probably use the cheapest baling method available, probably round.

a generic 200 hp tractor is generally going to run around 20000 pounds maybe a little less. for enough equivilant battery power i think actual weights would be extremely prohibitive, no matter how high tech/ cheap in price batteries become. there are other things to consider in farming, such as compaction of soils where weights of vehicles become problematic.

also, while corn is actually made into ethanol at around 15% of the general crop, currently there is no commercial production of energy sources from panics, and they can be said to only be in the r & d phase of production. who knows if a viable product will ever be made?

 

[breister]

I doubt you would ever see electric combines, in any time frame. unless you get pocket nuclear power plants, then what would be the point anyway?

also, what is the point of using a combine on switchgrass/ sawgrass/ panic crops? there is no significant seed head, and you wouldn't want to separate it anyways for the majority of fuel crops. there would be seed growers, but that is typically a small percentage of harvested crops.

Sorry, I'm completely ignorant on farming - was only throwing out that once we have cheap electricity and batteries almost all aspects of farming and distribution will drop in price (operating equipment on electricity is much cheaper and requires less maintenance than ICE engines). Whatever equipment they use (mowers? Sawgrass Whackers?) will be cheaper running on electric than on gas.

Part of my assumption in "better batteries" is that they are also much lighter and more compact, so become a more attractive alternative to gasoline for those uses.

also, while corn is actually made into ethanol at around 15% of the general crop, currently there is no commercial production of energy sources from panics, and they can be said to only be in the r & d phase of production. who knows if a viable product will ever be made?

If "panics" refers to crops like Swift fuel, I don't think it's R&D any more. They are actually in construction on their first commercial plant. To your points and mine, the only question then is whether they can make enough money selling the fuel to be profitable given gas prices are again low.

 

[Danny7]

panicum virgatum is the latin/ scientific name for switchgrass. most of the tall coarse grasses being looked at for cellulostic ethanol production are panicum varieties, in some areas commonly called panic, panic grass, panics, etc.

i can see cars being electric someday having usable long distance ranges and speeds. There are small planes just starting out with electric motors.

I have a real hard time seeing a tractor running on electricity/ battery power, the same as i just don't think there will someday be a jumbo jet off of electric power. think of a jumbo jet being the air equivalent of a tractor. Do you think a jumbo jet will someday run off electrics? even with theoretical super cheap electricity to take care of the recharging, the fuel densities, weights and power storage all seem to conspire against the brute force needed for large work of a jumbo jet in the air, or a tractor on the ground.

i could imagine an rv on electrics, so i'm not totally biased against the idea

 

[RV6_flyer]

RV's have been flying formation air shows on 100% ethanol since 1993.

http://www.ethanolairshows.com/History.aspx

Following is a quote from the above link:
Ethanol is taking flight as America's premiere renewable fuel. The Vanguard Squadron flies a dazzling four ship formation aerobatic airshow powered by ethanol. The Vanguard Squadron has been ethanol powered since the team began flying together in 1993. Ethanol adds power and performance to the Squadron's aircraft without any major engine modifications. The team has over 3,000 flight hours using 100% ethanol. The Squadron shares their love for flying and raising ethanol awareness by flying airshows across the country. The Vanguards are available for fly-bys for events such as ethanol plant openings, parades and ground breaking ceremonies. The Squadron flies 10-15 airshow events each year. Flying across the country promoting ethanol as the fuel for the future has introduced the Squadron to many people interested in aviation and alternative fuel solutions.

Here is a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=511oGYZADak

 

[frankh]

RV's have been flying formation air shows on 100% ethanol since 1993.

http://www.ethanolairshows.com/History.aspx

Following is a quote from the above link:
Ethanol is taking flight as America's premiere renewable fuel. The Vanguard Squadron flies a dazzling four ship formation aerobatic airshow powered by ethanol. The Vanguard Squadron has been ethanol powered since the team began flying together in 1993. Ethanol adds power and performance to the Squadron's aircraft without any major engine modifications. The team has over 3,000 flight hours using 100% ethanol. The Squadron shares their love for flying and raising ethanol awareness by flying airshows across the country. The Vanguards are available for fly-bys for events such as ethanol plant openings, parades and ground breaking ceremonies. The Squadron flies 10-15 airshow events each year. Flying across the country promoting ethanol as the fuel for the future has introduced the Squadron to many people interested in aviation and alternative fuel solutions.

Here is a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=511oGYZADak

Maybe they should rename their team to "the corn lobby"..

 

[N941WR]

Ethanol is just a bad idea, simple as that. I try my best to avoid it in my truck as my mileage goes down around 4 mpg every time I get a tank with that **** in it!

No way would I want to fly a plane with it.

The reason ethanol is not allowed in aircraft is because it has been tested and found to have "issues", like retaining water which can freeze at altitude. That is in addition to phase separation, where the water comes out of the fuel and makes your engine run rough, maybe even quite altogether.

I can buy 100 octane "race gas" at the pump so why can't they make led free 100 octane aviation fuel?

Just maybe we can still use petroleum fuels for a while. And while we are at it maybe we can quit strip mining for the copper, rare earth minerals & lithium for the electric motors & batteries.

Check out this article:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090910084259.htm

 

[frankh]

Seems to run just fine.

10% ETOH at least and assuming the material compatibility/vapour lock problems are dealt with.

..I was well below freezing at 14.5k for 5 hours and can honestly say I didn't notice much difference...except it won't lean out as far (LOP) and I'm not sure yet if it flys slower with ETOH or not as I have not done that experiment.

But I certainly didn't notice the engine running any different at least

Seems to me that with roughly a $1:50 price difference compared to 100LL it is well worth while learning to live with it, assuming you can't get alcohol free mogas that is.

i really don't think its the bogeyman that we like to think it is.

Now would I use the stuff at high altitude in the dead of winter..Maybe but I'm not there yet..Alcohol free mogas certainly, simply because I have experience of it under all conditions.

ETOH laded mogas needs a little more caution for the time being.

Frank

 

[breister]

panicum virgatum is the latin/ scientific name for switchgrass. most of the tall coarse grasses being looked at for cellulostic ethanol production are panicum varieties, in some areas commonly called panic, panic grass, panics, etc.

i can see cars being electric someday having usable long distance ranges and speeds. There are small planes just starting out with electric motors.

I have a real hard time seeing a tractor running on electricity/ battery power, the same as i just don't think there will someday be a jumbo jet off of electric power. think of a jumbo jet being the air equivalent of a tractor. Do you think a jumbo jet will someday run off electrics? even with theoretical super cheap electricity to take care of the recharging, the fuel densities, weights and power storage all seem to conspire against the brute force needed for large work of a jumbo jet in the air, or a tractor on the ground.

i could imagine an rv on electrics, so i'm not totally biased against the idea

Hehe - it really doesn't matter what WE can imagine - the future will fool us both.



More seriously, I DO see electrics replacing ICE (internal combustion engine) in tractors. Keeping in mind that on a tractor some extra weight can be a GOOD thing, at our current trend of around 5%/year improvements in batteries (about a 20 year average) it should not be too many years off.

I don't claim to know what the final answer will be, but promising technolgies such as nanowire batteries and carbon nanotube capacitors show the promise of sufficient energy density to do the trick - all that remains are manufacturing challenges.