airguy

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This was just put up on Avweb.com today - looks like Continental is seeing the handwriting on the wall. Wonder how long before Lycoming starts the same testing to maintain their market share?

http://www.avweb.com/avwebbiz/news/Continental_94_UL_Replacement_100LL_200048-1.html


Teledyne Continental said on Wednesday that it has just completed a round of flight and test-cell trials that suggest that 94UL may be an adequate replacement for 100LL, whose existence is threatened by continued availability of tetraethyl lead. TCM says it will push for approval of 94UL as the leading replacement for 100LL. 94UL is essentially 100LL without the TEL additive. It meets vapor pressure and other avgas specs, but without the lead, it doesn't match 100LL's octane, which is typical about 103 straight from the refinery.



But is 94 sufficient octane to avoid detonation on a hard, hot climb on a summer day? Teledyne said in a press conference that it hasn't expanded its testing into all corners of the flight envelope but four flight tests in a normally aspirated A36 Bonanza have revealed no cooling or detonation issues thus far. The company also said it doesn't think Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) will be required to make the engines run properly on 94UL.TCM has not, however, conducted a standard FAA climb-cooling test, which is the regime in which detonation usually occurs. Further, said Continental, it's not opposed to autofuel as a replacement for 100LL provided that certain standards are in place to assure consistent specs with regard to octane, vapor pressure and especially oxygenate additives such as ethanol. Although pure ethanol has been approved for limited use in modified aircraft engine in Brazil, it's considered a bad actor for aircraft use because it's strongly hydrophilic, lacks the energy content of avgas and causes corrosion in aluminum parts and degradation of soft seals and gaskets. High-octane autofuel does, however, meet basic octane requirements for normally aspirated engines. Owners who use it are finding it increasingly difficult to find autogas without ethanol blended in.

What about Continental's large-displacement turbocharged engines, such as the TSIO-520 and -550 series? Will 94UL work for them? TCM says stay tuned; it hasn't done the flight testing to confirm that. Others who have, however, have had difficulty passing the climb cooling barrier without encountering at least light detonation. TCM began its alternate fuel testing about a year ago and it plans to push for ASTM approval of 94UL as the transparent replacement for 100LL. That application will be submitted in a few weeks and could be approved as early as next fall. However, that's just the beginning of 94UL's journey to becoming a certified fuel, if it ever does. It will still require FAA certification and approval and at least a paperwork shuffle so that owners can legally use it in some airplanes. TCM's testing took place in an IO-550-B powered Bonanza, but it has done test-cell work with the 200-series engines, the O-470 and O-520 series.
 
Isn't that essentially...

...the same as the certified Superior Vantage engine? Which is basically a Lycoming clone?

Data below from the FAA approved TCDS - check (Note 7) - which has the same CYA words as the Continental write up...:)

-------------------------------

Fuel
Aviation Gasoline

ASTM D910, Min Grade
91/98 (lead optional)

Motor Gasoline (R+M/2) (See Note 7)
ASTM D4814, Min Octane 91 (no alcohol)

NOTE 7. Experience has shown that there is a higher probability of vapor locking on aircraft, especially on those equipped with fuel injected reciprocating engines when operating with high volatility fuels such as motor gasoline. Aircraft fuel system designs for the powerplant installation of these engines may need to incorporate special design features or enhanced cooling to accommodate operation with high volatility fuels such as motor gasoline. The aircraft fuel system hot weather testing requirements of FAR 23.961 must be successfully accomplished for each aircraft powerplant installation design of these engines (both carbureted and fuel injected) to obtain approval for operation with motor gasoline, reference AC 23.1521-1B.

---------------------

...and Lycoming already approves 91/96UL in the O-360, which is a EU (Swedish?) fuel - Sounds similar to 94UL
 
If it doesn't go faster I'm against it

If it doesn't go faster I'm against it. Surely there is a single real scientist in this world of formally educated and self educated experimenters that can come up with a fuel that can produce more performance from the engines in the world's piston engine aircraft fleet. If you read Jimmy Dolittle's book "I Could Never be So Lucky again" you know this approach has been around for quite a while.

Bob Axsom
 
ho hum :)

I figured out about 800 hours ago that 87 octane works just fine. :D

There is one thing about Swift fuel thats a minus... its made from sorghum, and its seasonal, so they can't get enough of it to make it in the winter months.
 
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Ho hum here too

Haven't tried 87 octane (EI's extend max timing out to 38 degrees BTDC I think) but I use 91 octane with and without ethanol.

My airplane hasn't seen 100LL for 500 hours

Discalimer..I have wingroot mounted fuel pumps only!!!

Frank
 
No..the FAA approved...

It's been there all the time on the data plate(91/96). Why now does anyone think this is new? (not you Gil)

...91/96 on the data plate is for leaded fuel with 2 ml/gall of TEL (lead)

Not the same as the UL stuff...

Only slightly OT

This is a picture I took last month of the source of all of the TEL on our 100LL.
It's the refinery/chemical works in Port Sunlight, Cheshire, England, taken from across the River Mersey (the one from the 60's song...:)...)
The typical English winter weather shown is a little different from the usual Tucson weather.

lead-factory.jpg


If this place burns down, or blows up, most of us will be in deep flying doo-doo...:(
 
This is great news!

I've been saying this for years -- the solution is just remove the lead. The resulting fuel is safe for 80% of the fleet and costs a dollar less per gallon -- and will get even cheaper over time because any refinery can make it and any pipeline can carry it.

Anyone who NEEDS 100 octane can already buy unleaded 100 racing fuel just about anywhere in the country. When 100LL goes away, Lyc and Cont will certify it for the few engines that need it and the big airports will start to carry it.

And finally, the few people who think they actually need racing fuel will be the only ones who have pay for it.

I can't wait.
 
Haven't tried 87 octane (EI's extend max timing out to 38 degrees BTDC I think) but I use 91 octane with and without ethanol.

My airplane hasn't seen 100LL for 500 hours

Discalimer..I have wingroot mounted fuel pumps only!!!

Frank

I have an Electroair, and have a timing meter set up to monitor it. The only time the timing falls below 25 degrees is at reduced manifold pressure settings (below 17"), and you typically don't see that until you're above 12K. At that point you're at 50% power or lower anyway, so its next to impossible to hurt the engine.
 
Huh???

I have an Electroair, and have a timing meter set up to monitor it. The only time the timing falls below 25 degrees is at reduced manifold pressure settings (below 17"), and you typically don't see that until you're above 12K. At that point you're at 50% power or lower anyway, so its next to impossible to hurt the engine.

Bob,
Does the timing actually drop below (less than) 25 degrees BTDC at or below 17" of manifold pressure? I would think that the timing would advance under a light load. Was that a typo? Am I off base here? :confused:
Charlie Kuss
 
While said fuel may be OK for 80% of the fleet when you use numbers of aircraft, it may not be for 80% of the FUEL users..in other words, 80% of the fuel dispensed is in aircraft that requires higher performance. 80% is from memory so may be off.
 
A question from way back...

Long long ago... well you know what I mean, I was a wrench bender for Chevy. Around '78 Dodge had a 6 cyl that did not have hardened valve guides. The no lead fuel didn't lube the guides as well and caused the guides to wear in no time flat. So the question - is that a problem for aviation engines? Since I have zip experience with them I was wondering about the no lead option.
Thanks, Paul
 
Bob,
Does the timing actually drop below (less than) 25 degrees BTDC at or below 17" of manifold pressure? I would think that the timing would advance under a light load. Was that a typo? Am I off base here? :confused:
Charlie Kuss

Sorry, I meant to say advance....
 
...91/96 on the data plate is for leaded fuel with 2 ml/gall of TEL (lead)

Not the same as the UL stuff...

Only slightly OT

This is a picture I took last month of the source of all of the TEL on our 100LL.
It's the refinery/chemical works in Port Sunlight, Cheshire, England, taken from across the River Mersey (the one from the 60's song...:)...)
The typical English winter weather shown is a little different from the usual Tucson weather.

lead-factory.jpg


If this place burns down, or blows up, most of us will be in deep flying doo-doo...:(

Naw, it would be great for aviation and aviator health.

Hans
 
Not any more

Long long ago... well you know what I mean, I was a wrench bender for Chevy. Around '78 Dodge had a 6 cyl that did not have hardened valve guides. The no lead fuel didn't lube the guides as well and caused the guides to wear in no time flat. So the question - is that a problem for aviation engines? Since I have zip experience with them I was wondering about the no lead option.
Thanks, Paul


Good question paul,

I think your referring to hardened valve seats..not the guides..Guides are typically phosphur bronze or cast iron..The only thing lead might do to guides is foul them up, but I don't lead has any beneficial effect on the guides.

When I was researching this I was told that Lycoming has been using hardened valve seats for at least 25 years and certainly any new motors from Superior, ECI or Lycoming will have no issue with unleaded fuels.

Unleaded fuels in Lycomings has a considerable track record and apart from the marginal design issue of the mechanical fuel pump from a vapour lock perspective then Mogas is perfectly OK.

I have also run quite a bit of 10% ethanol based mogas as well, but have not fully tested it at high altitude/cold weather.

Frank
 
Lead in the UK....

Naw, it would be great for aviation and aviator health.

Hans

Naw... overdone.

The TEL refinery is 20 miles from a Bronze Age lead mine in Cheshire, and many more in the next counties of Derbyshire and Shropshire - the stuff is in the soil already...:)

The UK took lead out of their auto fuel (petrol) many years after the US, but you can still buy lead by the kilo at the local home improvement stores for roofing flashing.

A quick view of the York cathedral restoration this Feb. showed a completely new lead sheet roof.
 
True, but..

While said fuel may be OK for 80% of the fleet when you use numbers of aircraft, it may not be for 80% of the FUEL users..in other words, 80% of the fuel dispensed is in aircraft that requires higher performance. 80% is from memory so may be off.

Shouldn't the people who NEED 100 octane racing fuel be the ones to PAY for it?

Those with normal aircraft engines effectively subsidize the fuel for a few hot rods -- who happen to burn almost twice as much of the stuff.

I've got nothing against hot rods. I just don't like paying for someone else's hot rod.
 
There is

a great deal of advantage in being able to burn the same stuff that cars do..The sheer volume of the stuff means it will always be the cheapest available...It would be very useful if this stuff was also available at airports so that those that can use it (most experimantal aircraft can at least).

So while I too have nothing against hotrods, it seems this 100LL fuel is the standard fuel even though its overkill for most of the piston engined fleet.

In the meantime I'll keep lugging it to the airport in cans..:)

Frank
 
Fingers faster than my brain

Frank,
what I meant to say was the old Dodge went to hardened valves to handle the no lead. They forgot to change the guides and they got chewed up at about 25000 miles (ask me how I know!) In any case it makes sense that if they went to the hardened valve seats they took care of the rest too! I hate it when I wash my hands and can't do a thing with them. :D

Thanks for the reply,
Paul
 
Sorghum may be what they used for the fuel they are testing, but it is not necessarily the only source. Supposedly they could use switchgrass and a variety of cellulose sources.

Big article in the latest Aviation Consumer about Swift Fuel. About half positive, about half uncertain about whether the stuff will be viable in the market place. Swift says they can make it for $2 per gallon, but distribution costs, insurance and all the other expenses could run the retail price to more than double that--so speculates Aviation Consumer.
 
I figured out about 800 hours ago that 87 octane works just fine. :D

There is one thing about Swift fuel thats a minus... its made from sorghum, and its seasonal, so they can't get enough of it to make it in the winter months.

Can also be made from switch grass. Smells funny too.

But you are right - the volume of raw material necessary to produce the fuel year round would make it less than optimal to actually ship it just to make fuel - something like 1 ton per barrel. Using switch grass and putting the plant south-central, you could probably get 9 months of productivity, but still - how many plants can afford to sit idle 3 months per year?
 
Not quite sure I understand this!

Anyone who NEEDS 100 octane can already buy unleaded 100 racing fuel just about anywhere in the country. When 100LL goes away, Lyc and Cont will certify it for the few engines that need it and the big airports will start to carry it.

Jon, Can you enlighten me on this? There are a lot of people that have been trying to come up with 100 octane without lead for a number of years now and they haven't been able to do it. Can you tell us where this fuel is available and what they use to obtain 100 octane? Around the Dallas area the race car drivers line up at the airport on Fridays.
 
Jon, Can you enlighten me on this? There are a lot of people that have been trying to come up with 100 octane without lead for a number of years now and they haven't been able to do it. Can you tell us where this fuel is available and what they use to obtain 100 octane? Around the Dallas area the race car drivers line up at the airport on Fridays.

Both VP fuels and Sunoco make unleaded fuels with >99 Octane.

http://www.sunocoinc.com/site/Consumer/RaceFuels/UnleadedFuels/

http://vpracingfuels.com/fuels_unleaded.asp

We used to us av gas all the time for our hotrods, because it was considerably cheaper than racing fuel. I haven't priced racing fuels in quite some time, so I don't know if that holds true anymore.
 
Those who say that "hot rods" are the ones who need 100LL are quite mistaken. Ameriflight out here on the west cost uses a bunch of it for their Piper Cheiftains that they fly daily to deliver checks and mail....
 
Eh?

Does the Cheiftan run a turbo on a 540 or something..I know that only a few of the certified motors need 100LL..and these really are hotrods compared to the engines most of the fleet run..

For the run of the mill Lyc 360/540 with normal compression then 100 octane fuel is simply unecessary...

Now they may need it for a different reason, i.e vapour lock prevention, but that is avoidable by modifying (or even better correctly designing in the first place) the fuel pumping system.

Personally I'd like to see 100LL go away just to stop burning lead.

Frank
 
Both VP fuels and Sunoco make unleaded fuels with >99 Octane.

http://www.sunocoinc.com/site/Consumer/RaceFuels/UnleadedFuels/

http://vpracingfuels.com/fuels_unleaded.asp

We used to us av gas all the time for our hotrods, because it was considerably cheaper than racing fuel. I haven't priced racing fuels in quite some time, so I don't know if that holds true anymore.

We have Trick Racing Fuel available locally in Seattle area. I have experimented with using 101 Octane Unleaded. It was very expensive though. Sorry can't remember the exact price and it was too long ago to matter.

I sure miss the Mogas that was available at some airports. The alcohol in the fuel and the STC mess seems to have put an end to that...

Randy C