Chevy's

[djvdb63]

George...

FWIW...I know all about Mr Meyers. I have read all the articles on Belted Air over the years...Sport Aviation, Kitplanes, Contact Magazine, Custom Planes, etc. etc. I find the setup attractive for many of the reasons that you mentioned. My tendency is to be attracted to something because of it's strengths...but then to decide on the thing based on whether I could live with the weaknesses.

Jan Egg seems unable to discuss the weaknesses of his packages in a straightforward way. This unnecessarily undermines his credibility, given that he has accomplished a great deal and there is much that he could honestly brag about.

So...since we have Jess Meyer's attention, I thought I would try to better understand what I suspect is the "achilles heel" of BAP...namely the weight of the package. That is why I asked about the empty weight of their RV-6A. I understand their airplane is fairly bare bones in terms of panel goodies and upholstery...at least is was described as such in some of the write-ups in the past. So understanding it's empty weight would help me to evaluate whether, in fact, the heaviness of the Vortec V-6 would be a deal killer for me.

George, the Egg Sub's could use a FP prop too, but it would compromise performance. I suspect this is true of BAP too, possibly to a lesser extent given the lower rpm ranges produced by the Vortec V-6 and the 1.41:1 PSRU ratio. In fact, the BAP web-site mentions a trial of a CS prop. There have been no updates on it for many moons, however.

There is a Mustang II with the BAP setup. Gale DeRosier around St. Louis. According the Gale, he cruises at 170 mph. This is probably 20 mph slower than an O-320 Mustang II...and 30 mph behind an O-360 Mustang II. And, Mr. Derosier says his setup weighs 40 lb. more than a 200 hp IO-360 would weigh. And this is with a very light FP prop. I suppose he would cruise faster if he added an electric CS prop. I also suppose he cannot afford to due to weight & CG issues.

Other than Gale's airplane, I have had difficulty finding performance reports from BAP customers. Maybe Jess could point me in the right directon

Dan

[gmcjetpilot]

Originally Posted by djvdb63

George...FWIW...I know all about Mr Meyers. Dan

Dan nice write up. I agree weight is an issue, and have followed their work for a long time as well. For all you who want to read more they have articles on their web site. Look forward to Jess telling us more specifics about empty weight and performance. What would be great is a fly off side by side to a O320 RV. This was done with the Rotary and Eggenfellner RV's against Van's factory planes. That is the only way to do it. Jess interested in a fly off?


I did a quick search from the dead sea scrolls going back 7-8 years on another RV list and read these unconfirmed data:

-Initial cost is going to be cheaper
-Performance is like a heavy 150-160HP O320
-Some have used Buick and Ford V6 engines as well
-Chevy conversions are 100-150lbs heaver (also saw 160-200lbs) Guess at least 150 lbs
-Cost saving goes away (more than a Lyc) w/ weight savings (exotic Alum heads/block)

I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS STILL TRUE. Jess, sorry for the scuttlebutt. It's not a new concept. I knew of a RV guy with a custom Ford V6 and it was not bad but was on the slow side. He was trying to get more speed with cowl mods, because his first pass was not elegant. His advice or feeling was if you want to go flying get a Lycoming. You like time spent on the custom installation and tinkering the conversion is worth it. It was way more than bolting up a Lyc for sure. However the BAP kit would no doubt make the installation time shorter and closer or similar to a Lyc. The Ford guy was going it alone without a kit, and this was many years ago.

[Jess Meyers]

Yes our plane is 1135 down from 1150. We changed to two Odysey dry cells for redundancy, changed several items under the cowl down to now what we produce. It depends on the throttle setting for speeds and powers, but I can relate our fuel flow test, It was select left tank, start engine, get in line, takeoff, climb to 6500 fly to Dagget 150 st. miles circle the VOR and return at 7500 let down and land, fill the tank 14 U.S Gallons total run time 2:10 minutes. Fly several other flights determine at regular cruise 3500 23" 155 ind miles 7.5 gallons per hour. We cool with liquid not fuel. We are faster than some slower than others. Lighter than some heavier than others. Tom my flying partner only comes in at slightly below 150 lbs me I gross at 207 and wishing I could lose 10 lbs. As we say come out bring your gps or meet up with us at the western area flyins and we'll take you flying. Today was cool 97F we were 45 under gross and it still left the pattern showing 1000 fpm climb. So I hope that answers some questions as to the upholstery it's quite essential due to many people climbing in and out we elected not to go plush, and it's easier to clean if someone gets well you know, sometimes they don't clean up after themselves..

[David-aviator]

Originally Posted by djvdb63

George...

George, the Egg Sub's could use a FP prop too, but it would compromise performance.......Gale DeRosier around St. Louis. According the Gale, he cruises at 170 mph. Dan

I've tried fixed pitch with the H4 and H6 Egg Subby. The performance compromise is too great for me. Either you roll on the runway like a heavy B-52, or the prop overspeeds shortly after take off. With the H4, I fixed the Quinti CS by using manual and with the H6 I ordered a very nice 3 blade wood prop from Fred Felix cut for a 0360 Lycoming, not knowing what to use as a reference for the auto engine. It was terribly under pitched and turned up only 3800 rpm (prop 2087) on take off. It was not a total loss as I sold the prop to a RV-4 friend who had just installed a 0360 and he loves it. With the 0360, it turns up about 2300 for take off.

I don't know anyone flying with fixed pitch with an auto engine except Gale Derosier and his is a ground adjustable warp drive. I flew loose formation with Gale the year he went to OSH with the Mustang II, maybe 4 or 5 years ago. We are hangar neighbors.

dd

[txaviator]

Here's another thread where we also discussed this back 6-7 months ago.

Good reading, and some good research by George.

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...ighlight=chevy

[djvdb63]

Jess...

Thanks for your very straight-forward response to the weight question.

What would be the specific cost increase for aluminum heads? Aluminum block? What would be the weight savings of using either/both of these?

What is the latest on the electric CS prop you have mentioned on the web site? Are you still using it? How much does it weigh? If so, what performance improvements have been realized?

Have you considered testing any of the other electic CS prop's on the market...Quinti, MT, Ivo, etc? Or are they just too heavy?

Have there been any in-flight failures of the BAP setup 4.3L Vortec V6?

Thanks...

Dan

[osxuser]

I also don't suppose there will every be support for a hydraulic constant speed PSRU? I just don't like Electric CS.

[Jess Meyers]

Dan, thanks for the interest, The aluminum heads will net a 40 lb savings. But the price is $2000.00 just for the heads. The new prepreg cowl will save 15 lbs over ours that we currently are using. I could go on a diet and I think that will be the best. The prop came in at 25 lbs all up including the power pack that is mounted any where that's convient. It is a hydraulic prop that does not require a hollow or oil shaft. It is working great, as we said on the site it was in the preliminary stages. The company is making changes to the design of the internal hub so that it can be used on "thumpers" otherwise it would be only for reduction type units. We have not tried the other props due to cost and return customer input. The performance was astounding on the low end, we could turn the chevy as low as 2500 rpm for 125 ind. So before all the howling this translated into 3gph over 10 hours range. It still might be seen. It also let the plane exceed the 190s in level flight. Our airplane is a little draggy, as Tom says it was built in 90 days but looks like 30 and this was before quickbuild. Yes we had one failure it was ours It was a quick throw on and the bearings were misaligned, the belt broke at 9500 msl over the desert of AZ. we landed on a road, hitched a ride to town changed the belt saw Seilegman Day's first hand had a cowboy fire off a 44 to chase the cows off the road and departed for home. This was 9 years ago,. by the way the total windmilling prop like the old rubber models didn't impead the glide much at all.

[gmcjetpilot]

Originally Posted by Jess Meyers

Dan, thanks for the interest, The aluminum heads will net a 40 lb savings. But the price is $2000.00 just for the heads...........

The prop came in at 25 lbs all up including the power pack that is mounted any where that's convient. It is a hydraulic prop that does not require a hollow or oil shaft.................

Jess, interesting.

What does an aluminum block cost and how much weight savings? Are they rare race only items?

What a Hydraulic prop that does not need a hollow shaft for reduction drive /engined planes?

Tell use more about the prop please? (cost, how it works, who makes it) I am fascinated it has a "power pack"? is that electrically powered or engine powered.

[djvdb63]

Jess...

Are you saying a builder could save 40 lb. for $2000? That sounds like a reasonable trade-off. Or are there extra costs to machine the heads & prepare them for the airplane? Would the aluminum heads be durable? Reliable?

So...say the average BAP 4.3L package with Fixed Prop weighs 150 lb. more than a typical Lyc O-320. One could save 15 lb. with lighter batteries, 15 lb. with your newer cowling, 40 lb. with the aluminum heads. Total 70 lb. weight savings? That doesn't sound too bad.

I suppose one would give some of that back with your newer CS prop, if it becomes available. Your Warp Drive 3-blade prop weighs, what...12 lb. as I recall? So one would give back about 13 lb. if the CS prop you are trying weighs 25 lb. as you say.

Yes...do tell us more about this hydraulic CS prop you are talking about... When might it become available? Cost?

Thanks...

Dan