VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics


Go Back   VAF Forums > Main > RV General Discussion/News
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-02-2013, 07:37 AM
dweyant dweyant is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: 07TS
Posts: 472
Default EAB Crashes

There was a thread on another message board a couple days ago talking about the safety rating of EAB's. Unfortunately it quickly devolved into the usual, what had the potential of being a good conversation, wasn't.

However, two things that came out of the conversation that stuck with me. Supposedly the two major causes of EAB crashes are, Pilot Training, and fuel system failures.

In my mind at least, Pilot training is an easy one to fix (for me at least). Make sure I'm flying enough while I'm building to keep up my skills (I co-own a Cardinal), and go get some type training before first flight.

The more interesting comment was the fuel system failure. I'm getting ready to build the fuel tanks for my RV, and I'm looking at MOGAS, Fuel Injected, all of the other things folks generally look at as they decide what to build.

So my question is, what is it that causes the fuel system to be the failure point on so many EAB crashes, and what can I personally do to make sure I don't have an issue with my fuel system.

Thanks,

-Dan
__________________
Dan Weyant
RV-9A N96KD
Done and Flying 4/30/2015

Last edited by rv6rick : 04-02-2013 at 07:42 AM. Reason: Removed expletive
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-02-2013, 07:53 AM
robertahegy's Avatar
robertahegy robertahegy is offline
Moderator/Tech Counselor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: East Troy, WI
Posts: 1,983
Default

I think the KISS approach to fuel systems is the best answer. As experimental AC builders, were are given a lot of latitude on how we build our planes. We need to be sure the systems we install are not overly complicated and are well executed. Like Scotty said " The more complicated the system, the easier it is to stop up the drain".

Roberta
__________________
Roberta Hegy
Built/Flew an RV-7A
Air Troy Estates, East Troy, WI
Ford Expedition and TRICE "Q"
Built Glen L "ZIP" Classic Outboard Runabout and Super Spartan Hydroplane
Glen L Torpedo
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-02-2013, 08:02 AM
dweyant dweyant is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: 07TS
Posts: 472
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertahegy View Post
I think the KISS approach to fuel systems is the best answer. As experimental AC builders, were are given a lot of latitude on how we build our planes. We need to be sure the systems we install are not overly complicated and are well executed. Like Scotty said " The more complicated the system, the easier it is to stop up the drain".

Roberta
Roberta,

Ok, I agree with this in theory, but how does that translate to building a fuel system?

I.e. how do I build a simple fuel system, for a fuel injected RV-9, and allow for the potential vapor lock issues with burning mogas?

-Dan
__________________
Dan Weyant
RV-9A N96KD
Done and Flying 4/30/2015
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-02-2013, 09:17 AM
Jim Percy Jim Percy is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 179
Default

See if you can find a certified low wing fuel injected airplane with an STC for auto gas... then copy it...
__________________
Jim Percy
SoCal
FFI Wingman
RV-7A, XP-O-360
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-02-2013, 10:53 AM
Ironflight's Avatar
Ironflight Ironflight is offline
VAF Moderator / Line Boy
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,247
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dweyant View Post
Roberta,

Ok, I agree with this in theory, but how does that translate to building a fuel system?

I.e. how do I build a simple fuel system, for a fuel injected RV-9, and allow for the potential vapor lock issues with burning mogas?

-Dan
I think that you are assuming that vapor lock is the failure mode that is bringing down AEB's when they have fuel system problems, and while some may be, I doubt that this is the predominant reason. This is where statistics fail (utterly) in preventing accidents - you need to actually read the causes of the mishaps, then come up with a way around the particular problem that caused it. You will probably find few RV's, built to plans, that have had such problems. Therefore, build an RV to plans, but with materials that are compatible with Ethanol, and you shouldn't have any real problems.

As Roberta said, keeping fuel systems simple is a huge factor in building a reliable system - and few can argue that Van's system is simple - it has been used for decades on countless airplanes, and works fine.

Paul
__________________
Paul F. Dye
Editor at Large - KITPLANES Magazine
RV-8 - N188PD - "Valkyrie"
RV-6 (By Marriage) - N164MS - "Mikey"
RV-3B - N13PL - "Tsamsiyu"
A&P, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor
Dayton Valley Airpark (A34)
http://Ironflight.com
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-02-2013, 11:03 AM
kbehrent's Avatar
kbehrent kbehrent is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Puget Sound Area, WA
Posts: 220
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dweyant View Post
Roberta,

I.e. how do I build a simple fuel system, for a fuel injected RV-9, and allow for the potential vapor lock issues with burning mogas?

-Dan
For me, it was not just about the plumbing, but the fuel system as a whole. I wanted a simple system that was easily adaptable to future fuels while allowing me to get the optimum performance and economy out of my engine without all the voodoo that gets talked about on this forum or the $1000+ seminars that try to explain the voodoo. I wanted a simple, easy to install and maintain system that provided feedback that all is well and functioning normally.

I am using Precision's Eagle EMS (mfg of certified FI and Experimental Silverhawk FI) in my IO-320 C/S RV-9A. It provides both dual electronic Ignition and electronic fuel injection in a single system. It was a good route for me to simplify my fuel system and better support future fuels, including mogas, while managing my Ignition and air/fuel ratio to provide best power and best economy cruise without the voodoo. I am given a lean pot to lean by a percentage, but for mine full lean automatically sets it up for best economy cruise, not matter what power setting or altitude. Should I try to over lean and cause the cylinders to rise over 400 degrees, it will ignore my input and adjust timing and fuel to keep temps down. It's simply to install and made to be a direct replacement for other Mag/EI and carb/FI installations.

I used standard hard-pipe plumbing from the wings through the fuel selector to the firewall. On the engine side, I used professionally custom-built fuel lines from the firewall to the mechanical pump and than to the fuel block on top of the cylinders. Unlike standard/mechanical FI, this is NO hose from the mech pump to the throttle body, thus no line going from the throttle body between the cylinders (cooking the fuel) to the distributor block. Note: This isn't really a distributor block per se, it contains a micro filter and dual pressure sensors.

Each injector is individually pulsed at a much higher pressure than mech FI, thus quickly clearing out any vapors. Injectors lines are larger and insulated/fire sleeved. There is no need for a fuel flow sensor spliced into your main fuel line since the computers(s) know exactly how much fuel was consumed bases on the pulse length and fuel pressure. Much more accurate than traditional flow sensors. The throttle body is the same as the Silverhawk, except it has dual MAP/Temp sensors connected to it.

I flew to AirVenture2012 and landed at airports that were above 100+ degrees with high density altitudes. Engine had plenty time to heat soak, but it started just like a car and immediately adjusted for density alt. On take-off/climb, it always maintained best power until reaching cruising alt when I switched to best economy cruise.

Although not everyone wants to try something new, I would do the following regardless of what fuel system I would install. I would personally avoid anything that adds more fuel lines and/or connections. I wouldn't add a aux tank or use any FI system requiring a return line. It only complicates the fuel system, adds more connections that could leak or fail and makes it difficult to manage/calculate fuel consumed from each tank, especially with return lines.

If you want to use mogas, I would use as much hard pipe as possible unless you are willing to replace your fuel hoses on a regular/scheduled interval. Also, have a pro make your hoses!! Confirm that the mfg of your mech pump and fuel system are ok with mogas.

NOTE: I am not a A&P nor do I pretend to be. These are just my personal comments based on my experience or lack there of. However, I have stayed at a Holiday Inn numerous times!

My .02 cents worth, good luck.
__________________
Kevin Behrent
TeenFlight Puyallup, President
www.teenflight.org
http://facebook.com/teenflightpuyallup

EAA Chapter #326
Puget Sound, WA
RV-9A
Aerosport (Superior XP) IO-320 C/S, Precision Eagle EMS
Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:46 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.