Flight safety, accidents in RV's

[chuck]

Somebody asked me a question a while back about how safe it is to fly. I gave a rather sweeping answers indicating that the main way people kill themselves is running out of fuel and flying into clouds.

I just found that Dan C. has a listing of all of the RV accidents and fatalities on his website here:

http://www.rvproject.com/ntsb.html

I figured that I would see for myself the safety record for RV's in general. There are about 100 accidents that caused 1 or 2 fatalities in RV's. There are about 4650 RV's flying as of July 2006 (www.vansaircraft.com).

I went through all of the NTSB pages and tried to categorize how the accidents happened (this is harder than it seems). I suspect if I ran through it again my numbers would be slightly different since some of this stuff is really grey*. Here is my breakdown (with rounding)

Acro 11%
Buzz 8%
Formation 3%
Fuel 7%
Engine 13%
IMC 7%
Stall 15%
Landing 8%
Drugs 2%
Airframe 4%
Prop 1%
Midair 2%
CG 1%
Unknown 18%

*I put each accident in one of these categories so there is a lot of judgment. For example, all but one of the airframe (wing folding) fatalities are in rv3's, doing acro, I listed those as airframe problems. All formation accidents are midairs but I stuck them in formation. One of the formation accidents was in IMC. Many of the accidents could be listed under multiple categories...

What struck me on this analysis was that common wisdom that says Fuel problems and flying into IMC are not the primary fatality causes since in fact for RV's they cause about 15% of the fatalities. Acro/Buzzing account for about 20%, stall/spin 15%, Engine Problems 13%.

Seems like the risks are higher than I figured AND many of these accidents can be prevented since the majority of the causes are in the pilots control.

Be careful out there...

[jonbakerok]

Originally Posted by chuck

Acro/Buzzing account for about 20%, stall/spin 15%, Engine Problems 13%.

The first time you experience the angle of attack in an RV stall, you think "How could anyone ever not notice this?". Apparently a bunch of people don't.

A simple stall warning device costs less than $100 bucks.

[rv6ejguy]

Originally Posted by jonbakerok

The first time you experience the angle of attack in an RV stall, you think "How could anyone ever not notice this?". Apparently a bunch of people don't.

Most of these stall/spin accidents don't happen with wings level so the experience is nothing like the way most of us practice stalls. With lots of bank on and pulling a bit of G, I think you would find you'd be on your back in less than a second in an RV. If you are below 500 feet, you are probably dead. Even at 1000 feet, the shock of the extreme attitude, reaction time and lack of training for recovery would probably kill many of us.

Moral is don't yank and bank at low altitudes and low airspeeds. My personal rules in the circuit before final are never get below 90 knots, never exceed 40 degrees of bank and never pull more than 1/2 a G. You will never stall if you never break these rules. Oh, and never accept any clearance from a controller which would make you violate your rules. When you get that bad feeling that you are getting too slow trying to comply with an instruction or with traffic ahead, do the overshoot even if it means getting back in the line. Better to be 10-20 minutes late, than dead.

[Rick6a]

Originally Posted by jonbakerok

The first time you experience the angle of attack in an RV stall, you think "How could anyone ever not notice this?". Apparently a bunch of people don't....................

With good reason. The March issue of "Plane & Pilot" made the most succinct argument yet as to why stall/spin training is so ineffectual. In the real world, it is not hauling back on the stick and kicking in full rudder like a typical spin training curricula mandates, but rather it is almost imperceptable inputs and wishful thinking by the pilot trying to tighten the turn just a little bit more, usually on base to final at slow airspeed and allowing the ball to wander way out of center. Too easy to do as thousands of hapless and suddenly deceased pilots have done over the years. Bottom line is keep the ball centered and you won't spin. But that simplistic bromide cannot compensate for pilot distraction, fatigue, flight control interference by a right seat passenger, or other factors. I too fly with an AOA and respect its utility, but I still keep a wary eye on the ball during those slow speed turns.

[chuck]

Originally Posted by Rick6a

With good reason. The March issue of "Plane & Pilot" made the most succinct argument yet as to why stall/spin training is so ineffectual. In the real world, it is not hauling back on the stick and kicking in full rudder like a typical spin training curricula mandates, but rather it is almost imperceptible inputs and wishful thinking by the pilot trying to tighten the turn just a little bit more, usually on base to final at slow airspeed and allowing the ball to wander way out of center.

This seems more an indictment of how spins are trained rather than spin training. I wonder if (at altitude) instructors could trick students into a spin while doing slow flight, so it really catches them by surprise. Might be very frightening to some, including the instructor!

I was getting checked out in a bonanza and while performing my first stall the rate the wing dropped was shocking compared to the docile airplanes I'd been flying. I was my instructors first student flight in the bonanza, I think she was surprised as much as I was! My focus on airspeed/slip went up an order of magnitude after that event.

I know everyone hates 'training wheels' but some sort of airspeed/slip (or AOA/slip) warning on modern EFIS might save a few pilots.

[jonbakerok]

I'll say it again.. it only costs about $100 to put stall warning in your plane.

Why would someone want some complicated gadget that warns of a slip if they won't spend $100 for a stall warning vane? If you don't stall, you can't spin, regardless of how un-coordinated you are.

AOA is great, but it's $1000 more.

As far as never going below 90 kts in the pattern -- that might be a problem, since 90 kts is (104 mph) is higher than Vfe (flap extend speed -- 100 mph). I use 80 MPH (70 kts) as my "never go below" speed. That's still high enough to do even a 60 degree turn without stalling (barely). A 60 degree turn raises stall speed by 1.4142, which would be 78 mph in my plane. Of course, I never exceed 45 degrees in the pattern. I'm just saying that 80 mph is plenty of margin.

I understand completely how people manage to stall an RV in the pattern. I was following a cub a couple of years ago into SWRFI the first year it was at Hondo. In all the distractions, I had subconsciously let my airspeed fall off. When I turned base, my stall warning light came on -- which got attention in a hurry! Probably saved my ***.

That guy who died with his wife this year at Osh would be alive today if he'd spent $100 on a stall warner. The guy I saw kill himself in a Glastar last year while doing stupid human tricks at an airport near Osh might still be alive if he'd had a stall warner to tell him how stupid he was being.

I don't understand why anyone would fly, much less build, a plane without some sort of stall warning device.

[zav6a]

Jon

Just beign lazy. Do you have either a vendor name or link to plans for the $100 device?

Cought a stall when doing some single person aerial photograpahy last weekend. Banked way over to get the wing out of the way. Dropped the camera pretty fast!

[jonbakerok]

Originally Posted by zav6a

Jon

Just beign lazy. Do you have either a vendor name or link to plans for the $100 device?

Cought a stall when doing some single person aerial photograpahy last weekend. Banked way over to get the wing out of the way. Dropped the camera pretty fast!

I posted a response yesterday but it's gone today. Don't know what's up with that. Does Doug remove things he thinks are vendor ads? Maybe I just fat-fingered something, but I could have sworn I saw the post after hitting "submit".

I have nothing to do with the company. I'm simply pointing out that this one device was specifically designed for the RV6 and it's half the cost of any other option. And it works great on my plane.

Anyway, here it is again... the "Reddish Stall Warner". Spruce sells it.

Doug, if the link to Spruce is a problem, feel free to delete the link.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...tallwarner.php

[DeltaRomeo]

Hey Jon!

I didn't delete it. Perfectly appropriate post.

best,
d

[Ironflight]

What I find amazing about that stall warner is the price! It is actually quite appropriate for what you get (and for somethign that shoudl work simply, and as designed.

Back in my certified Grumman two-seater, the stall warning switch was essentially identical - a vane on a hinge and a microswitch - and that assembly (if you could find one) sold for about a thousand bucks!!!

And, of course, it was required equipment, so if it wasn't working, the aircraft was unairworthy....

THAT is why I am now flying experimental!