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02-01-2013, 09:52 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Newport, TN
Posts: 7,496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N427EF
Although not officially announced, Dynon will complement their arrangement
with a certified GPS in the future.
In the meantime the current version of their GPS will wake up traffic targets
when installed with their certified and compliant transponder.
We are still 7 years away from the 2020 target date.
I don't need to upgrade anything at this point I am just looking into the future and trying to lay out a plan for the eventual mandate of mode S and ADS-B
compliance.
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I learned the lesson the hard way. If it does not exist today, don't ever assume it will in the future no matter what the marketing department says. This is not just focused on Dynon, it goes across the board.
We don't know how long the FAA will continue to allow "Non-Compliant" clients to continue to receive TIS-B data from the ground stations. It may last to 2020 and beyond or it may end tomorrow. Only the contractors operating the ground stations know....
Just to keep everything accurate....while Dynon's transponder is certified and does meet the requirements for an ES enabled transponder, alone it does not meet the requirements for ADS-B out. It must be connected to a certified position source that meets the requirements of the 2020 mandate to be considered a fully compliant client to the system.
When the Dynon transponder is operated by getting it's position source from the Skyview system, it is not a full compliant client to the system. However, for now the FAA is allowing this anyway. Keep in mind, this could end at any time.
The same goes for anyone driving a Garmin ES enabled xponder with the G3X system. It works for now but is not a full compliant client to the system.
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02-01-2013, 11:02 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Gold Hill, NC25
Posts: 2,400
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While the cheapest Garmin WAAS solution for this maybe the 430W, there are certainly lots of cheap (under $100) WAAS enabled GPS's (those little pucks) on the market that could be be compliant(probably are) and work just fine in our EAB aircraft.
__________________
Kahuna
6A, S8 ,
Gold Hill, NC25
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02-01-2013, 11:10 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Newport, TN
Posts: 7,496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahuna
While the cheapest Garmin WAAS solution for this maybe the 430W, there are certainly lots of cheap (under $100) WAAS enabled GPS's (those little pucks) on the market that could be be compliant(probably are) and work just fine in our EAB aircraft.
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While that would be nice, it simply is not a correct assumption.
WAAS capability is not the only factor to determine compliancy for a certified position source to be used with an ES enabled transponder for ADS-B out.
Most of these units output their data using the NMEA protocol and this protocol does not even come close to providing enough information to be used as a position source for an ES enabled transponder.
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2020-165.pdf
Last edited by Brantel : 02-01-2013 at 11:14 AM.
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02-01-2013, 11:26 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: na
Posts: 1,457
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nope....
not to mention the software involved in a TSO's WAAS aviation GPS must meet requirements (for specific areas) of RTCA/DO-178B, in some cases to Level 'A'. This is a very stringent certification criteria which no COTS non-aviation GPS will endevor to meet.....
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02-01-2013, 12:03 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Gold Hill, NC25
Posts: 2,400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brantel
While that would be nice, it simply is not a correct assumption.
WAAS capability is not the only factor to determine compliancy for a certified position source to be used with an ES enabled transponder for ADS-B out.
Most of these units output their data using the NMEA protocol and this protocol does not even come close to providing enough information to be used as a position source for an ES enabled transponder.
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...C%2020-165.pdf
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Brantel I agree on those points. My point is that a WAAS enabled GPS could pretty easily be employed into this system if the squitter allowed it. Its a pretty simple sentence structure change. I cant find any requirement in the current FAA ADSB rules that show TSO requirements for the EAB space on the WAAS GPS receiver for the ADSB system. I could be wrong here and I did not go very deep.
We dont have one of these yet, but it would be pretty easy to make one.
__________________
Kahuna
6A, S8 ,
Gold Hill, NC25
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02-01-2013, 12:11 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Newport, TN
Posts: 7,496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahuna
Brantel I agree on those points. My point is that a WAAS enabled GPS could pretty easily be employed into this system if the squitter allowed it. Its a pretty simple sentence structure change. I cant find any requirement in the current FAA ADSB rules that show TSO requirements for the EAB space on the WAAS GPS receiver for the ADSB system. I could be wrong here and I did not go very deep.
We dont have one of these yet, but it would be pretty easy to make one.
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Mike, Here you go...this is the deal breaker right here:
FROM FAR 91.227:
(c) ADS-B Out Performance Requirements for NACP, NACV, NIC, SDA, and SIL--
(1) For aircraft broadcasting ADS-B Out as required under Sec. 91.225 (a) and (b)--
(i) The aircraft's NACP must be less than 0.05 nautical miles;
(ii) The aircraft's NACV must be less than 10 meters per second;
(iii) The aircraft's NIC must be less than 0.2 nautical miles;
(iv) The aircraft's SDA must be 2; and
(v) The aircraft's SIL must be 3.
(2) Changes in NACP, NACV, SDA, and SIL must be broadcast within 10 seconds.
(3) Changes in NIC must be broadcast within 12 seconds.
This item in RED above ties directly into AC 20-165 Figure 9, this gives guidance of what SDA is and what level 2 requires.
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02-01-2013, 12:53 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Forest Grove, OR
Posts: 239
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Just did the 330 Transponder Upgrade for ADS-B Out
Okay, here's the deal for the 330 transponder upgrade based on my experience. I just got my 330 back from Garmin after doing the ADS-B upgrade. I was told that in order to be fully compliant that I also had to upgrade my 430W software to the new version 5.0. That upgrade was free but I had to pay the avionics shop for one hour to do the install.
If you're going to upgrade your 330, my advice is to make a note of all your current settings before sending it in. The upgrade seemed to change the settings back to default. Therefore input and output settings I had changed previously based on my wiring were gone. I couldn't find a good record of what I did so I had to reinvent the wheel. I didn't realize that at first so I plugged in the transponder and went flying. Of course nothing worked.
I had also expected the Arinc 429 connection that I already had to take care of making the ADS-B talk to the 330. That's not the case and I now need to connect a serial connection between the 330 and the 430W to make it work. Here's the explanation I received from G3Expert on that topic:
Both the GNS 4XX/5XX and the GTN 6XX/7XX have relatively new RS-232 output channel format selections for ADS-B. You cannot use an A429 interface to get the new V2 2020 compliant data from the 430W to the 330. You must use RS-232.
Set the GNS 430W RS-232 Output format to ADS-B Out+ and set the GTX 330 ES RS-232 channel Input format to REMOTE.
The 430W ADS-B Out data is generally provided to the GTX330ES on its port 2 as shown in this diagram. You will need to take one of the spare RS-232 channels on the 430W, configure it for ADS-B OUT (earlier than V5.00) or ADS-B OUT+ (V5.00 and later) and connect it to GTX330ES pins 24,58.
It is a transmit only connection from the GNS/GTN to the GTX. Very simple to wire and configure.
Set 1090 to off and UAT In to on. If this works to get the ground station to provide you a TIS-B uplink, you can try turning 1090 on as well and test that. All this does is tell the ground station what you are capable of receiving. Since the GDL39 is a dual frequency receiver, technically you should set both to ON, but we have seen cases where the ground station seems to prefer you just set UAT ON.
So this is all I know at this time. I won't have a chance to dig into this and change my wiring for a week or so. Once I get it all working I'll let everyone know how it all works. And thanks to G3Xpert for all his good assistance when needed.
__________________
Mark - Forest Grove, OR (Homebase KHIO)
Flying RV-9A N962MC
EAA Tech Advisor - Ham AI7MC
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02-01-2013, 02:11 PM
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Senior Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
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Moved to "Glass Cockpit" for long term storage.
__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909
Rv-10, N210LM.
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011 
Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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02-01-2013, 05:01 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 1,499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N427EF
Although not officially announced, Dynon will complement their arrangement with a certified GPS in the future.
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Just to be clear, we have never said that we will have a certified GPS and nobody should assume that we will. It's an interesting business opportunity for sure, but not one we have made any statements about at all.
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02-01-2013, 08:45 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,516
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My bad
Didn't mean to spread any rumors. 
I simply assumed a certified GPS would end up in the Dynon pipeline eventually. After all, it is the last piece of the ADS-B compliance puzzle missing in the Dynon harware line up. A lot can happen in 7 years and it is certainly not a priority at this time.
However, I can't imagine any reason why Dynon would not complete the last piece of the puzzle.
I already have wiring in for the second GPS 
__________________
Ernst Freitag
RV-8 finished (sold)
RV-10 Flyer 600 plus hours
Running on E10 mogas
Don't believe everything you know.
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