Whirlwind 151 Problems

[jtrusso]

I'm having two problems with my Whirlwind 151 propeller. One is that it is leaking oil at the blade root and the second is one blade is slightly loose. I'm running the prop on a Mattituck O360 A1A with two slick mags.

About two years ago the piston inside the hub failed and dumped the majority of the engine oil through the hub and out the blades. The emergency landing and aftermath can be read here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/whirlw...rs/message/588

After the repair we've always had a small amount of leakage of oil, but nothing like we are seeing now.


This picture was taken just after shutdown on a 40 minute flight.


A close up of the blade/ferrule intersection

These blades were upgraded to the 151H about 180 hours ago along with a complete propeller overhaul.


There are no of oil in the hub, everything looks clean.


Close up of blade ferrule in hub

These pictures and a few more can be seen in the album:
https://plus.google.com/photos/11155...62407324264465


The second issue is one blade is slightly loose. When shaken at the tip the blade/ferrule moves about .25", double the Whirlwind allowable movement of 1/8". The movement is between the blade/ferrule assembly and the hub, there is no movement of the blade relative to the ferrule. I'm trying to understand what is allowing this movement and whether or not it is a serious problem. From what I understand of the design of the prop the only way the blade/ferrule can move relative to the hub is if the shim under the snap ring is loose, or if there has been damage to the bearing races.

I have been in contact with Jeremy at Whirlwind and their opinion is I should sent the prop back for inspection and overhaul. I appreciate that they can't really troubleshoot these issues with a few pictures and they are taking the conservative approach. However, the prop is only about 1/2 way to the recommended OH time of 350 hours. On the yahoo forum I've read about people fixing loosed blades by replacing the shims under the snap ring which holds the blade to the hub.

So my question for the VAF brain trust, what do you guys think? Do I have a major problem which justifies pulling the prop from the plane and shipping it back to Ohio for a repair, or is this just an annoying nit that is part of life with this prop? I definitely want to be safe and would not compromise safety for saving a few bucks, but I don't want to take my plane down for a month and spend a pile of cash if I don't have to.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts.

[David Paule]

Not at all an expert, but looking at Whirlwind's web site for the specifications for the 151, they say the horsepower is 165 hp at 2,700 rpm.

Given that and your engine and experience, it seems that it would certainly be worth contacting them.

Dave

[Ironflight]

I can't tell you what you should do John, but if my -151 was leaking oil like that AND had a loose blade, I'd be sending it back to have them diagnose and fix it. Shedding a blade is catastrophic, and I wouldn't take any chances on it. We have slightly more than 200 hours on ours now, and no sign of leaks or issues - there was a little grease shedding very early on, but it has been clean most of the time. Your problem sounds unusual to me, and one of the things you buy into with the WW is that you are an early adopter - the factory is really the only source of info/repairs.

Paul

[Russ McCutcheon]

What about these guys http://www.americanpropeller.com/index.htm there a lot closer to you. Are they an authorized service center for WW props?

[Captain Avgas]

There's a fair bit about the Whirlwind 151 in the archives including this thread in 2008 about a complete 151 hub failure that led to an off-field crash landing.

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...ad.php?t=27623

I note that your engine is an O360 A1A, which does not have a counterweighted crankshaft. It is my understanding that the 151 series is not recommended for use in O-360 or IO-360 applications unless the engine is equipped with a counterweighted crankshaft.

[erich weaver]

Originally Posted by Russ McCutcheon

What about these guys http://www.americanpropeller.com/index.htm there a lot closer to you. Are they an authorized service center for WW props?

Yes, they are. However, I sent them my 200rv prop for warranty work as it was constantly throwing a small amount of grease. Ended up paying a few $ extra to get the complete overhaul since the prop was off anyway and that would get it back to a zero hr prop. Now have 50 more hours on it and what is it doing? Throwing grease again. Whirlwind now says to send it back to them in Ohio. Ugh.

Erich

[Russ McCutcheon]

Originally Posted by erich weaver

Yes, they are. However, I sent them my 200rv prop for warranty work as it was constantly throwing a small amount of grease. Ended up paying a few $ extra to get the complete overhaul since the prop was off anyway and that would get it back to a zero hr prop. Now have 50 more hours on it and what is it doing? Throwing grease again. Whirlwind now says to send it back to them in Ohio. Ugh.

Erich

Iv'e gone around this block with my MT too,,,, Ugh is right! One nice thing though is that Dick the owner of http://www.nwpropeller.com/ came and got it for O/H and brought it back to me, then when it puked grease he came and got it and brought it back to me when corrected, all in his cool 182 and at no charge!

[Ron Lee]

This event may or may not have anything to do with yours.

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...ight=whirlwind

I think that he had another loose blade event soon after reinstallation from the first repair.

[Roy Thoma]

John, I'd suggest checking with Ameritech and see if they will warranty the previous work. I can't tell from your post if it has been more than a year since they did your service.

I bought my WW 200RV as part of the VAF group buy several years ago. I delayed delivery as long as possible, and took delivery near the end of 2009. My first flight was about a year and a half later, so the prop was out of the one year warranty before it flew.

The prop was leaking grease after about 200 (tach) hours, I pulled it and Ameritech picked it up at my hangar. I had them do the 650 hour inspection in addition to the reseal, they also replaced the cylinder ($272) because it was scored. Total cost $1167. Ameritech delivered the prop to my hangar, total turn around time was two weeks.

After about 50-75 more time on the tach the prop was leaking grease. I flew most of the 2012 summer with it leaking, cleaning the canopy after almost every landing. The finish on the blades had what looked like stress cracking. Kevin at Ameritech was not SURE it was just the finish. I pulled the prop (AGAIN) in Nov of 2013. Ameritech picked up the prop at my hangar, dismantled the prop, shipped the blades to Whirlwind in OH for inspection, cracks reported "no defects found requiring repairs", blades shipped back to Ameritech, prop reassembled and delivered to my hangar. This took almost two months, in part because I was out of town for 2+ weeks and delayed the process. I expected the reseal to be done under warranty from the first repair. I was prepared be billed for shipping at least for the round trip to OH for inspection, possibly something for the inspection. Their was NO CHARGE. I have about 10 hours on the prop since the second trip to Ameritech. Too early to be sure it won't be throwing grease. (I fly a fair bit, not quite as much as Vlad. Two months without flying my RV was hard.)

So, Ameritech has delivered my prop to me three times, picked it up for service twice. I have not had to make/find shipping crates. Total deliver charges. ZERO. They have always been helpful and pleasant. Yes it was disappointing that I've needed any service. I know Hartzel owners who have had to do reseal's at about 200 hours also.

I like the prop: it seems smooth quiet and the plane performs great. I called WhirlWind to be sure the prop was suitable for my high compression engine before joining the group buy. I was assured it was.

Regards,

[glasair]

I am the co-owner of the plane and this prop with John. We received the following from Whirlwind in Ohio regarding having work done at Ameritech:
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"This prop really needs to be returned to us in Ohio for a tear down inspection. The 151?s can be touchy so we no longer authorize other prop shops to service them because they often do not get it right and then they try to bill us for warranty of their own work"
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We will disassemble the blades and ship the blades and hub by UPS to Ohio. It is over $350 to ship the assembled prop from Los Angeles because the 3-blade form factor cannot be shipped by UPS or USPS. One big advantage of the 2-blade over the 3-blade is shipping. The 3-blade has to go by freight truck. Of course, it will have to come back by truck.

Regarding what they will do in Ohio:
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"Our tear down inspection will take the prop to zero hours. The tear down inspection interval for the steel ferrule ?H? blade 151 prop on a -360 engine is 350 hours.

You ask if this rebuild will ?alleviate any future concerns operating this prop on an O-360 engine.? There are no concerns regarding structural integrity or anything safety related. There may or may not be long term maintenance concerns. This prop will leak again ? all CS props eventually do. The assembly methods and materials we now use for the 151?s are better than they have ever been, and we certainly like to think the prop will make it the next 350 hours without needing anything, but sometimes they do. Every four cylinder engine is slightly different and every prop is slightly different. We have some 151?s that have been flying on -360 engines for years without one hint of trouble; we have others that always want to leak some grease (but your current leak is extreme).

The 150 / 151 propellers were not designed to be used electronic ignition engines and were never marketed that way. But a lot of them ended up on these engines, and many ended up on -360?s with high compression pistons and other mods, all of which exasperate the situation.

We now very clearly and exclusively sell the 151 prop to only standard factory horsepower O-320?s no matter what a prospective customer says about his/her engine. If it is a modified -320 or higher displacement four cylinder we simply will not sell them the 151; we?ll sell them the larger platform 200RV instead. "

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