DeltaHawk Engine

Phantom30 · #1 12-04-2012, 10:50 AM

Does anyone have knowledge if Vans looking at offering the Deltahawk as a possible engine choice....looks interesting!

Auburntsts · #2 12-04-2012, 10:54 AM

Seriously doubt it. Do a search -- there's a considerable number of posts on the DeltaHawk here on VAF.

rzbill · #3 12-04-2012, 11:02 AM

It boils down to their inability to accurately answer the two basic questions of how much and when. That status has not changed since I first looked in 2005.

flywithme623 · #4 12-04-2012, 11:03 AM

Here is an update from DeltaHawk after an inquiry I made a couple of months ago.

Hi,
Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you.

My only excuse is that lots of activity is going on here and we are very busy. We moved into a plant that had formerly been used to build road construction equipment. We have spent several months cleaning it up, getting new high quality, energy efficient lighting installed, hiring people to create a production line and upgrading our data processing equipment to handle full scale manufacturing. The facility looks empty right now but it is clean, bright and online. The engineers will begin installing the line and we should be well positioned for production well before our certification completes. We had been planning on finishing our certification earlier, and while we are making great progress, we are still not yet complete.

We are working on several issues that will require extensive testing to confirm their success. We will be able to set specific dates for shipment of experimental engines and completion of FAA certification when we complete that testing and the endurance testing required by the FAA for certification.

We appreciate the patience of all who are waiting on the DeltaHawk engines and assure you that we are progressing as quickly as we can.

As to your specific questions, the price for the DeltaHawk engines has risen through the years like everything else. Early in the summer of 2010 we realized that we would have to sell the engines for over $40,000 US. But that still left the builder with the need to design and build the engine mount, systems for fuel, lubrication and coolant, and a sensor array and monitoring system for the engine operating parameters. We have assisted several companies under contract to develop these systems and felt that this task is not something a typical experimental aircraft builder would want to tackle. As a result, we are developing Firewall Kits for the aircraft that are most popular with our customers.

We are currently offering Firewall to Prop Kits for six experimental aircraft models: Velocity SE, Cozy IV, RV-7/7A, RV-10, Lancair Legacy and Zenith CH 801. Other models will be added as we are able. We would like to know what models there is interest for firewall kits.

The current price includes the engine mount, pre-installed firewall equipment, MVP-50P Engine Monitoring System, and DeltaHawk engine. The price is $69,500. We also have an optional GA Alert Oil Monitoring System. This package is available with a deposit of $12,000. The engine mount and firewall equipment is shipped when ready and the DeltaHawk engine is shipped six months later. You can see the details of what equipment is included in the firewall kit on our web site at: www.deltahawkengines.com. This does not include a prop. You would have to obtain that elsewhere.

We appreciate your interest in our engine. We have several engines on order by RV builders but none have been delivered yet so none are flying.

For information on the Firewall Kit for the RV-7, you can go to our web site at: http://www.deltahawkengines.com/Firewall12%20RV-7.shtml.

Information about the contents of the Firewall Kit can be found at: http://www.deltahawkengines.com/Firewall%20prices.shtml.

The answers to most questions are on our web site at: www.deltahawkengines.com.

You will definitely need a new or modified cowling. You will be able to make it more streamlined as the DeltaHawk engine is much narrower than the Lycomings. You will want to provide air flow for the coolant radiator and the oil cooler. You should talk to the RV-7a owners group to see if anyone already has a design for the cowling mods available. Deltahawk is not providing airframe modifications except for the engine mount.

Thank you for your interest in DeltaHawk engines. If you have further questions, please let me know.

Sincerely,
Rip Edmundson
DeltaHawk Engines, Inc.
Racine, Wisconsin USA
rip@deltahawkengines.com

FlyArmy · #5 12-04-2012, 11:36 AM

I check their website almost daily looking for updates, but there rarely are. I was convinced they'd be a viable competitor by now, but they can't get their **** together. A lot of people think they have a business model of collecting investor money, producing nothing, using up the money, raising more capital, repeat... I hope they produce a good engine soon and can stop this trend, as (according to their "estimates") the numbers they post are amazing for fuel burn, speed, range, etc.

But, if their estimates for performance are anything like their estimates for the timeline for achieving a production line and an STC for their cirrus, they probably won't be as great as advertised.

I for one would like a cirrus/lancair es/rv-10 with a deltahawk for a family hauler if the perf numbers and safety are close to their estimates. Just waiting for them or someone else to be successful.

flyboy1963 · #6 12-04-2012, 12:58 PM

I too wish these guys all the luck in the world. No doubt some personal fortunes will be lost along the way.
But I have to question any company who accepts deposits of any kind, without a product.
Can you say...Jim Bede?

I think the engine may be a good fit for a Cozy, but why develop a FWF kit for a handful of planes, when you can make one for the 7,000 RV's already flying, and more, in the works??? Doesn't make any sense; they will not recover that cost...ever.
It would seem...Selling a few hundred RV powerplants is a much better stepping stone to certification in a Piper or similar.
Again, all the best of intentions are great, but sounds like they need a good CFO driving the bus.

rzbill · #7 12-04-2012, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rzbill

It boils down to their inability to accurately answer the two basic questions of how much and when. That status has not changed since I first looked in 2005.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flywithme623

We have several engines on order by RV builders but none have been delivered yet so none are flying.

Well, there you go.

ColoRv · #8 12-06-2012, 05:33 AM

Who in their right mind would put a deposit down on a vaporware sales strategy like this? The concept is great, as is most every version of vaporware ever sold to the sucker born every minute. Perhaps they will one day make an engine, though even that is in no way certain, but the price will never allow it to be a viable alternative. IMHO of course.

flyboy1963 · #9 12-06-2012, 03:44 PM

again, not to bash any visionary entreprenuers.....

just sayin'....

good ol' Jimmy Bede, helluva airplane designer, 5100 kits delivered over about 6 years? ......
no engine.

( deposits not refunded neither!)

rv6ejguy · #10 12-06-2012, 06:17 PM

Some great comments here.

I don't really understand DH and Zoche. Year after year they are "close to delivery" but in fact nothing ever happens. Yes, it costs a lot to develop an aero engine and more still to certify it but really, if you are serious do you need 10 years or 20 to get it to market?

Seems like a continuous supply of investors is needed over that time to sustain things instead of just getting on with the testing, breaking, improving and testing again until you have a reliable product ready for sale, then releasing it to the experimental market to get more time on it and generate some cash flow for more R&D and setting up the full scale production. This being said, you really want to be sure the product is pretty good before even the initial market release otherwise, we see what happens all too often with inadequately tested designs. DH has said before, they want it to be very good when released. Lofty goal but there are still likely to be problems in the real world. Might as well accept that it won't be perfect from the get go.

Borrowing a ton of money and extending development years or decades while continuing to borrow to feed the beast almost always ends in failure when there is no revenue stream somewhere between points A and B. It has been proven so many times that this strategy rarely succeeds.

Why does the price keep going up? Simple, development has dragged on so long that the per unit cost becomes ridiculous because of the millions in investment money that needs to be paid back. This finally sinks the whole project. Few civilian users are going to pay $70K+ for a 200 hp engine just to save 20-30% on fuel costs- there are no overall savings when the initial acquisition costs are so far above existing, proven designs. There is never a real payback in that equation.

New designs have to compete on price, performance and reliability to be truly successful. In that, they have much to prove.

Why is it that some companies can get it done quickly on a very reasonable budget ( I am thinking WAM here) and offer reliable products at a competitive price while others have little to show for their time, effort and money? I am guessing it has to do with how the project is run, the people in charge and the validity of the business plan in place. Some simply have it and some don't.