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12-05-2012, 12:47 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 8I3
Posts: 3,564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Owen
I have shot through a car windshield in training and the 9mm hole was about 9mm.... Maybe a "connect the dots" approach would work better. .
Thanks,
John
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I'm sure if you got something like a short-barreled Saiga with a 20 round drum you could probably daylight the whole side of the fuselage. Or maybe a Kel-Tec KSG 
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Please don't PM me! Email only!
Bob Japundza CFI A&PIA
N9187P PA-24-260B Comanche, flying
N678X F1 Rocket, under const.
N244BJ RV-6 "victim of SNF tornado" 1200+ hrs, rebuilding
N8155F C150 flying
N7925P PA-24-250 Comanche, restoring
Not a thing I own is stock.
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12-05-2012, 01:26 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Wichita Falls, TX
Posts: 2,182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Owen
What is the technique that you would use a firearm to evac through a RV canopy? I would think that a single shot would create an opening but pretty small. I have shot through a car windshield in training and the 9mm hole was about 9mm.... Maybe a "connect the dots" approach would work better. I like the idea of the M-9 bayonet and have one needing a mission.
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Once at least a single hole is blown thru the plexiglass, enlarging that hole will be a much easier task to perform... especially when you're upside down, all cramped up into a small uncomfortable place, maybe also injured and probably also on the verge of panicking with claustrophobia and fear of catching on fire. Plexiglas is pretty strong and would be pretty tough to get that first hole started when your movement is so constricted.
I like the "connect the dots" idea too... also the drum-fed SBS Saiga 12 
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Neal Howard
Airplaneless once again...
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12-05-2012, 03:28 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Anywhere, USA
Posts: 30
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guns & fire
would firing a gun risk igniting dripping fuel though?
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12-05-2012, 04:07 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 119
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I wouldn't say that it's a huge risk.
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Tyler Arnold
Iowa, La
Piper Colt
RV-4 wings and empennage
VAF Supporter! 2012, 2013
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12-05-2012, 05:13 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 4,435
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If you're trapped in the cockpit with the canopy pressing against the ground and the wings blocking part of the perimeter view, how do you ensure that you're not going to hit someone when you fire that gun?
Also you probably don't want to be punching holes in your otherwise perhaps reusable fuel tanks, even if they're empty, which they might not be.
Dave
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12-05-2012, 06:38 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Donalsonville, GA.
Posts: 117
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RV4 Rollover Escape Methods
Everybody knows all you need is a battery powered drill with regular drill bit as an escape tool. When you flip over start drilling holes. The canopy will crack and split at every hole you drill. At least that's the way it works when you are installing the canopy. 
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Jerry Isler
Donalsonville, GA
RV4 N455J
1949 C140A N9641A
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12-05-2012, 09:04 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sioux Falls, SD
Posts: 209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisler
Everybody knows all you need is a battery powered drill with regular drill bit as an escape tool. When you flip over start drilling holes. The canopy will crack and split at every hole you drill. At least that's the way it works when you are installing the canopy. 
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Sounds like first hand knowledge to me? Very funny.
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Joe
RV-9A N525XC
Superior IO-320
Dynon HDX
Flying as of 5-4-18
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12-05-2012, 09:33 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Yucca Valley, CA
Posts: 27
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ROFL
David...I first have to say since I have a knack for stating the obvious....if you are worried that there are people nearby that might be hit by errant bullets (since you guys all liked my comedic approach) and those people are there after your large clearing turn made using the dirt snow angel method, just yell HELP at the top of your lungs. If they are unwilling to render assistance (the reason you have to destroy your canopy in addition to all of the other destroyed parts)....then don't worry.
Airduct...nice to hear from you finally, lol. Try igniting flames sometime using gasoline and a handgun. If all of this comic relief still has you scratching your head....go back to rule #1 again and find another airframe, maybe one with a bomber hatch. Or an R2D2 unit to flip you. Hey, I wonder if there is an R2D2 STC for my Cessna.....
By the way, the Saiga idea has a nice Expendables feel to it. Does Atchisson still make shotguns?
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Jason Bernhardsen
Cessna 172 The Phoenix
RV-4 In Progress
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12-06-2012, 04:22 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: McMinnville, Oregon: HOME of the SPRUCE GOOSE
Posts: 540
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Flipped RV EVAC
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisler
Everybody knows all you need is a battery powered drill with regular drill bit as an escape tool. When you flip over start drilling holes. The canopy will crack and split at every hole you drill. At least that's the way it works when you are installing the canopy. 
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Actually jlisler, above, makes a point with Merit. His idea of a battery powered drill could be one of the hand held lithium types that is light. An option that is simple and would likely work.
I like the efficiency of stuff that do multiple things. A small, light, lithium hand screw gun has been used on my RV an entire condition inspection, on one charge. I carry it in my plane to remove the cowl or any needed panel. I will add a drill bit with a driver attachment in case a crowd is standing around watching.
Personally, my EVAC plan is to consider the backstop, make many holes in my RV canopy with my gun, ASAP, then punch out the RV canopy and EVAC. Quick and simple, although always good having a plan B.
I have seen flipped planes that begin leaking fuel slowly upon being flipped.
Safety Note: A bullet hitting ground can make sparks. If fuel has leaked for much time, a firearm is risky. At that point I will wish I had that drill :-)
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Tailwinds...
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.
Leonardo Da Vinci
Working on a RV-4
Citabria 7GCBC
Cessna 180
RV7 I0-360 C/S, Slider, AP, Glass, etc. sold.
RV6 O-320 F/P, Slider, AP, Steam, etc., sold
Citabria 7KCAB rental
Piper Cherokee, sold
Sparrowhawk, sold
Proud -VAF- Supporter - Exempt, Dues Paid Anyway.
Last edited by NickAir : 12-06-2012 at 04:55 AM.
Reason: Safety Note: A bullet hitting ground can make sparks
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12-06-2012, 12:00 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: TX32
Posts: 1,891
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There I was, flat on my back...
Quote:
Originally Posted by airduct
Know anyone who has rolled it over and escaped?
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Having spent 1500 hours in my RV4 and another 1000 in my HR2 over the past 25 years, trust me the thought has crossed my mind.
Way back in the early 90's during my RV4 construction (before pre-punch, VAF or Forum chat), I witnessed an RV3 forced landing following an engine failure on takeoff. He did a great job, three point full stall touchdown in a plowed bean field followed rather promptly by a flip-over. The force nearly buried the canopy between the furrows rendering the hapless pilot "a captive audience". Had he possessed a .357 Magnum, Axe or blowtorch, none would have mattered. It was the five of us flipping it over and extricating him that saved the day.
I also watched my wing man force land his RV4 in a field after an oil line failed and his engine seized, 2 miles from an airport after a 10 mile glide. He wheels landed it on a narrow furrow road between soybean fields, stayed upright, climbed out and stood there waving at me. I marked his position, flew home, grabbed my truck, trailer and tools and headed to the site to dismantle and recover the 4.
Similarly I have watched another RV (A model)flip over after standing on the brakes and breaking off the nosewheel at a short strip. I was able to extricate the pilot by myself using my trusty Smith and Wesson 911 Tool I carry with me. I penetrated and sawed the canopy in two in less than 60 seconds and drug him out alongside the roll bar with about 8" of clearance. A "person of size" would still be there. Be advised, to perform the rescue requires you to go under the wing with minimal room to move around. It's dark, even in daytime and hazardous, fuel is right above you dripping out of the tanks. Time is critical. Wear gloves if you have any, shards of plexiglass go everywhere while sawing.
I've also chatted with a MI RV4 pilot who ditched his RV4 in Lake Michigan after an engine failure. He popped his canopy release prior to splashdown and had it fully open and unstrapped/outside in 5 seconds. It actually floated nose down for several minutes, long enough for a ski boat to pull alongside for the rescue.
My advice to survive a rollover is to try to avoid it beforehand and to plan your forced landing accordingly. If you limit your exposure to low altitude (takeoff/landing) and consider roads or waterways primarily instead of plowed fields, urban sprawl, I believe your survival chances increase and rollover decrease. I have landed my RV4 and HR2 on dirt roads with ample wing clearance. (most County roads have a 30' right of way). If that option even presents itself.
Practice makes perfect. In the F16 we practiced glides as a matter of currency, mandatory. I highly recommend it in your RV for many reasons. Carry a survival tool and have a plan.
V/R
Smokey
Dues gladly paid in Iraq...
Gladly paid to DR anyway...

Smith and Wesson 911 tool
Last edited by smokyray : 12-06-2012 at 01:50 PM.
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