Panel Upgrade Dilemma

[RVZoomie]

I'm in the process of making my -8 more IFR capable with a new panel by reusing some pre existing avionics and installing several new components which I'll outline below. My goal is to install a clean, functional panel that will help me penetrate IFR while potentially adding some value to the A/C and only keep the plane down for a few winter months. While I enjoy doing all the work myself, my concern is that I have little experience other than wiring cars and am worried the timeline will creep excessively trying to troubleshoot problems and attempting to keep the install 'aesthetically pleasing.' My options are to 1) under take the project myself and seek local help when I get stuck or 2) send the equipment off to Stein for an almost plug and play solution. Obviously, sending it off will cost me an additional $1500 (my estimate) but I imagine I will spend $500 or so just in wiring etc not to mention the time I'm short of. I did not build the A/C but have accomplished several other upgrade projects and thought this would be an opportunity to really personalize my -8. Could anyone shed some light on the time and money commitment involved in cutting/wiring/installing your own panel? Thanks in advance.

Components:

Reusing: Garmin 300XL, King Xsponder, Grand Rapids EIS,Alt, A/S, VSI
Adding: Elec AI, Dynon D-100, HS-34, SL-30, PS PMA-8000, Garmin 396, Elec trim, Exp Bus 2V, Heated pitot w AOA, probably missing some

[BobTurner]

There is a third option: make careful measurements and have Stein build just the harness. If you are buying new Garmin or PS stuff they usually insist on a pro built harness, if you want them to honor the warantee.

[BobTurner]

You did not ask for comments but....

I would suggest considering a GRT Sport instead of the Dynon, because it is compatible with the grt EIS you already have and the data presentation is superior to the eis alone. I would also use a Dynon D6 or a TruTrac (I forget what the mini efis unit's name is), with back up battery, rather than a mechanical, electric AI. Less expensive, you get a complete 6 pack, with their own battery power.

The PS 8000 is a really nice unit but something of an overkill for a two seat airplane where the only thing that needs switching are the two coms. I'd get a good ps intercom with auxillary imputs, and add a panel switch to switch between coms.

[rleffler]

Originally Posted by BobTurner

You did not ask for comments but....

I would suggest considering a GRT Sport instead of the Dynon, because it is compatible with the grt EIS you already have and the data presentation is superior to the eis alone. I would also use a Dynon D6 or a TruTrac (I forget what the mini efis unit's name is), with back up battery, rather than a mechanical, electric AI. Less expensive, you get a complete 6 pack, with their own battery power.

The PS 8000 is a really nice unit but something of an overkill for a two seat airplane where the only thing that needs switching are the two coms. I'd get a good ps intercom with auxillary imputs, and add a panel switch to switch between coms.

I agree with Bob. I also recommend the Trutrak Gemini PFD. It's not as deep as the Dynon products, which gives you a little more flexibility in panel placement. You already have half a GRT solution, just get the rest. GRT has multiple edits options depending on your budget.

But since you selected a d100 and no IFR certified GPS, I'm going to assume you are on a tight budget. I would talk to Jason @ Aerotronics or any of the guys @ SteinAir. They can give you a quick swag on the harness costs. Both do great work, but they aren't cheap. Based upon the costs I've seen for other implementations, the costs may be higher than you are anticipating. Give them a call, perhaps I may be wrong.

If you have skills, you can save quite a bit by doing things yourself. Both vendors can explain the pros and cons.

Bob

[penguin]

Are you sure you want to fit an Exp Bus 2V? They are quite limiting as the number of loads is restricted, also for IFR you will need to have some kind of by-pass. I've just taken one out as it was becoming unreliable (after 10 years) and could not support the number of circuits I needed, I swapped to ordinary blade fuses. Electrics is not very difficult, but can be time consuming. Its difficult to estimate how long a panel re-build will take. Do you include all the thinking, planning and re-planning time? Cutting the panel blank & riveting in radio stack mounts, etc, could take a few hours (say 5). Finishing and painting will take another 5 or 10. The wiring will take 20 to 50 hours, depending on your skill and the complexity (have you considered an approach fast stack?). Installation, check out and bug fixing could easily take 20 or 30 hours. The question is really how much you value your own time, and how much you want to spend (cash and time)? If you buy the avionics from the right place you will get a wiring harness as well. I would also add 50% to your first estimate!

Pete

[SMO]

When installing the panel for my Rocket, once I had the equipment sorted out I had Stein do a wiring diagram for me and I wired it myself. When I fired it up for the first time everything worked and I didn't let any smoke out either! With the wiring diagram it is a simple process, but still takes time.

[Ironflight]

Originally Posted by RVZoomie

Could anyone shed some light on the time and money commitment involved in cutting/wiring/installing your own panel? Thanks in advance.

While building and wiring a panel is not a superhuman task, the thing that may limit you significantly is a lack of tools, since you didn't build the airplane. We take for granted having boxes full of the tools we used to put our airplanes together, but if you're starting from zero, the tool budget (including good wiring tools) could surprise you.

I am ALL for building our own panels - I have done quite a few, including upgrades - but if your primary purpose is to fly, then give Stein a call first and talk it all over with him. For reference, a new IFR panel in our RV-6 took us about 6 weeks - and that was pretty much every evening and a day a weekend. The problem is compounded by "mission creep" - once you get a lot of stuff exposed, you'll find other jobs you'll want to do.

[humptybump]

If you have the time, doing the panel is a good project. There are lost of things to learn and the VAF fatheful always come through with answers, options and opinions.

What follows is a bit long winded but its may be of interest as I'm just a few weeks ahead of you in this process and you might find some of what I've learned thus far to be interesting (or a cure for insomnia).


Be conscious of three things: your mission (including workflows); the construction; future maintenance.

It sounds like you have a good handle on your mission. If you've ever watched an aerobatic pilot, Olympic bobsled driver, or even a canine agility handler, they all will vision their routine. Take some time to vision an IFR flight or some of the requests your might get from ATC. This will help with reviewing your workflow.

On the subject of construction, Paul makes a significant point. I've been into the planning portion of my panel project for about four weeks now. I too am a buyer not a builder. I underestimated the cost of the tools, fateners, scraps of aluminum for making small brackets, etc. I'll likely have $1500 to spend in that category.

In addition to the new panel hardware, I've already snuck another $500 into wire, connectors, some additional breakers, switches, diodes, bus bars, heat shrink, wire guard, a dock for the portable GPS, vendor specific harnesses, etc. it adds up fast.

For my project, i am designing both for usability and buildability. My RV-8 has the typical switches and breakers off on a panel to the right. It also has the full range of old style engine sensors connected to individual gauges, and it has a old 2-axis autopilot. This translates to lots of wires running everywhere. It's a mess, impossible to maintain, let alone upgrade.

The new panel design moves all the engine sensors to the engine side of the firewall with an RDAC and then a single cable to the cockpit. With diligent attention to workflow and systems, the new panel will have enough space available to accomodate all of the breakers and switches in the panel itself. (Thankfully I don't have the volume of breakers of a well known RV-3B). Still, I have 20 breakers, 3 fuses, and ANL, and 7 switches. By locating the switches and breakers strategically in the panel, the vast majority of wire runs will be small and self contained. I have one main power lead and just four disconnects to pull the entire panel. This will mean the panel is completely built on a bench including most testing. Service loops (small loops of the cables) will make pulling the panel easy.

I see your equipment list suggests you are paying close attention to the budget. I can relate. I anticipate future updates. If your 300XL will be in a radio stack, consider leaving some vertical space in the radio stack if you get the chance to upgrade to a 430W or 530 you'll use the same width but need more height. Another design choice is tocluster the least stable items (those things You'd love to upgrade if you could or know you will upgrade but not for another year or two). I am designing a replaceable center section to my panel. That way, when I hit the lottery, I can build just a new center panel.

Obviously, therecare alot of things to consider in your panel project.

One last note, if you are not 110% fluent in your aircraft's existing electrical plan, you may well find yourself spending a lot more time than first expected just getting the basics in place. As Brian, Paul, Walt, Jeff, and many others can attest, I've asked a lot of basic questions over the past two weeks and have spent an estimated 30 hours on the panel layout (mission and workflow) and another 30 hours on the electrical plan (build ability and maintainability).

So that's a lot to digest and like everyone says, it's just one point of view.

[RVZoomie]

I appreciate all the replies/suggestions. I will continue to keep correspondence with Stein and consider all my options here. I'm currently working with some local guys with EE backgrounds and recent panel construction experience. The other nice thing about hangin around a base is that daily I work with some techs that are willing to help in exchange for beer and free flights. To address a few responses:

I was under the impression that the Garmin 300XL was TSO'd and could be used for IFR w an annunciator for terminal>approach dev>approach

All the components I have chosen are already purchased and were purchased at significantly less than retail or used so I'm trying to make the best of the current setup

Also, I plan on reconfiguring the current wiring to have a standby or emer bus and adding a belt driven alternator in addition to the one currently mounted on the vacuum pad.

The ExpBus was a decision made on price once again and a hopeful time savings, I've heard both pros and cons for it and am trying to place it next to my right knee.

I really appreciate all the responses, as of now I'm thinking I will have stein cut a panel for me and draw up a wiring diagram that I build off of- as always plans subject to change. Have a good one!

[BobTurner]

You are correct about the 300XL. Of course it is not a WAAS box so it can only do non precision approaches; no LPV's. i do not know to what extent your Dynon efis will support it (provide annunciators, display CDI).