Support Problem for Jabiru Engines

[CFI1513840]

During a recent visit to Australia I learned of a potential problem with support from the Jabiru engine factory. The following is an e-mail that I sent to Jabiru requesting information relating to this problem. The e-mail explains the problem in detail. I will post any response I get back from Jabiru on this subject.

"Dear Sirs,

I am an RV-7 builder in the US. I just returned from a 2 week holiday in Australia where I had the pleasure of flying with a friend in his 2-place Jabiru. I was very impressed with the airplane and engine. My friend has the 120HP 3300 model, and I was particularly impressed with the power and smoothness of the engine operation. I checked your web site and see that you also manufacture the 180HP 5100 8-cylinder model, which would be ideal for the RV-7. I am sure there are many RV builders in the US who would be interested in the model 5100 depending on pricing, availability and support.

Before I decide whether to purchase the model 5100, I would like to inquire about an area of concern that surfaced while I was in Australia. While there, I attended a meeting of the Yabba North Flying Club in Victoria with some friends. One of my friends, Mr. Colin Jamieson, is flying with a Jabiru engine in his home built ?Cobram Hornet?. After some discussion with Colin, it seems apparent that he has received less than satisfactory support for his Jabiru engine. The problem relates to his engine oil pressure, which drops to an alarming level at lower RPM settings (into the red). He is only getting about 7 PSI at idle. This would be very disconcerting and may be indicative of a more serious problem. Colin tried many fixes recommended by Jabiru without success, then finally sent the engine back to the factory, and even though a new, larger oil pump was installed, the problem remains unresolved. On top of that he was charged $500 for the service provided. That is what?s known in the US as a horror story and I?m sure I can speak for my fellow RV builders in the US to say that this level of service would be unacceptable. We would have to be assured that such a problem as experienced by Colin would be resolved by the factory at no cost.

I?m sure that you understand that one of the most important factors in deciding which engine to purchase for a home built installation is the responsiveness and level of support provided by the factory, possibly even more important than price. Hopefully you will be able to provide some assurance that the problems experienced by Colin Jamieson are being addressed by Jabiru. I am hopeful that soon Colin can provide me with the good news that his problem has been resolved. This will go a long way towards building confidence in Jabiru among potential US buyers. Owner testimonials and feedback (both positive and negative) are important factors for any builder in the product selection process. I plan on making these concerns known on my RV-7 web group, along with your response. That will help to assure the 2500+ members that they can count on solid support and factory backing if they decide to purchase the Jabiru 5100 engine.

Sincerely yours,

Ken Howell
EAA Chapter 524
Frederick Maryland USA"

[Highflight]

Wanna' bet that this one will soon go the way of the Crossflow thread?

[Rotary10-RV]

Originally Posted by Highflight

Wanna' bet that this one will soon go the way of the Crossflow thread?

Don't think so Vern,
Jabiru is a reputable manufacturer of engines and aircraft. They are usually very reliable. I have had lots of contact with the west coast USA rep Jabiru-pacific. Very few problems reported. Also note that I don't own any Jabiru products, engine or airframe soI have no stake in what is said. My EAA chapter has several Jabiru installations with no hassles reported.
Bill Jepson

[Highflight]

You misunderstand; I'm referring to the idea that there could be a "legal" repercussion for anything mentioned on the board that casts a negative light on a manufacturer... even if true (especially if true?).

Fear of litigation is what removed the Crossflow thread.

[Rotary10-RV]

Originally Posted by Highflight

You misunderstand; I'm referring to the idea that there could be a "legal" repercussion for anything mentioned on the board that casts a negative light on a manufacturer... even if true (especially if true?).

Fear of litigation is what removed the Crossflow thread.

I understand Vern, But I don't think you will find the guys at Jabiru such legal weenies. While I don't know what caused the low oil pressure mentioned in the first post I would be suprised if they (Jabiru) don't eventually solve it.
Bill Jepson

[Highflight]

Here's a brief explanation of how things like this can work in general.
http://www.efl-law.com/int_lib.html

Scroll down to the "Recent US Decision" and you'll see that owners and moderators of newsgroups have been declared to be not liable for things posted on their site.
Of course, that doesn't stop someone from suing you, but I would think the case would be easily and quickly dismissed according to the Ninth Circuit Court.

And from that decision early on (p.4) is this:
BERZON, Circuit Judge:
There is no reason inherent in the technological features of
cyberspace why First Amendment and defamation law should
apply differently in cyberspace than in the brick and mortar
world. Congress, however, has chosen for policy reasons to
immunize from liability for defamatory or obscene speech
?providers and users of interactive computer services? when
the defamatory or obscene material is ?provided? by someone
else.
Bold emphasis by me.

Doug has to make his own decisions, but according to a higher US court (not just a single bottom echelon judge), it doesn't look like he has anything to be afraid of.

edit: added link

[CFI1513840]

As a follow-up to the initial posting, I wanted to report that there has been no reply or acknowledgement of my e-mail to Jabiru. Neither has there been a reply to a letter to Jabiru on the same subject, written by another Jabiru owner in Australia (e-mail me for copy of letter if interested). It seems as though Jabiru is taking the stonewall approach in dealing with Colin's low oil pressure problem. It's worth restating that this engine was purchased brand new from Jabiru and it has always exhibited the low oil pressure problem at RPMs less than cruise. In the meantime, Colin continues to fly with it, very carefully, with one eye glued on the oil pressure gauge.

[CFI1513840]

For those who are interested, the following is an information update I received from my friend in Australia...but, still no response from Jabiru.

Hi!
The first sentence says it all ... interestingly Jabiru MUST be aware of this problem but will not respond to Col, you or I.


cheers,

Geoff


Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:31:53 +1000
Subject: From the UK Jabiru website!!!

Date Posted: 06:13:49 04/28/05 Thu
Author: Vic
Subject: Re: OIL COOLER
In reply to: JOE ISZARD 's message, "OIL COOLER" on 19:01:29 04/26/05 Tue

For some reason on the later big fin 40mm carb engines, with no oil cooler you get a seriously low indicated low oil pressure when it's warmed up. I worked with Gary at STA to find the problem and fitting the cooler sorted it. The cooler over cools and I've found that putting foil over it didn't make that much difference.

I run my three year old engine without a cooler and get much more sensible temepratures. This is assuming the temperature you are seeing is true, it maybe a lot hotter elsewhere in the engine. Beware those of you that have an engine still in guarantee as this will invalidate it as I was informed by ST Aviation

[CFI1513840]

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but anyone considering a Jabiru engine should read this. Read the original message first. Unless Jabiru deals with this problem, I personally wouldn't consider using one of their engines.

Ken Howell
Glenwood Maryland

"Con Brogan" <lybro@...>
Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:39 am
Subject: RE: [jabiruengines] Re: Oil Pressure con24250
Offline
Send Email


Hank, Andy, Pete, any other Jabiru Dealers watching.

Fact. Jabiru will not publicly admit to any problems with their engines.
They will not offer to repair, replace or sort faults, even on brand new
engines. They don't issue service bulletins. They use customers for R&D.
They have never heard of customer service. They leave their dealers to take
the heat and carry the can when the you know what hits the fan.

This is a crazy, penny pinching mentality because their engines are
basically sound. They just will not address problems as and when they arise.
Sending out half a dozen parts, for example, to customers effected would not
cost them that much and would generate huge good will. Instead they go in to
auto denial, berry their head in the sand ostrich style.

Maybe they should rename the company Ostrich engines as they are doing the
Jabiru a great disservice.

Con


-----Original Message-----
From: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of titanhank
Sent: 13 July 2005 00:37
To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [jabiruengines] Re: Oil Pressure


well, i replaced the spring, plunger and washer today. it did not
help at all. still have low oil pressure. after talking to pete about
5 times today, sorry pete, we installed 4 that is four washers under
the spring. it made the cold start oil pressure come up to 59 psi,
but had not effect on the oil pressure above 180 deg oil temp. pete,
ben, the owner of the new plane and i all agree that their is
something wrong inside this engine. pete as always, is taking care of
the problem. he has suggested pulling the engine for teardown and
inspection at the factory and is calling the main engine overhaul guy
tonight down in kangaroo land. the engine is a brand new 18.5 hr
engine and should not need an overhaul just yet. i will keep everyone
posted on how jabiru handles this problem and if the problem is ever
solved. i love the jabiru engines and have built the last three
airplanes with them, but i am beginning to worry about these engines
for my customer airplanes. i hope they take care of the problem
quickly, when you have a customer who just dropped in excess of
$50000 on a new titan tornado with a bad engine it makes my life
miserable and makes me look like an idiot for recommending them. i
will continue to recommend the engine to my customers untill jabiru
proves me wrong.

hank canup
North Georgia Sport Planes
http://ngasportplanes.tripod.com

[mlw450802]

Originally Posted by CFI1513840

...Sent: 13 July 2005 00:37
To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [jabiruengines] Re: Oil Pressure


well, i replaced the spring, plunger and washer today. it did not
help at all. still have low oil pressure. after talking to pete about
5 times today, sorry pete, we installed 4 that is four washers under
the spring. it made the cold start oil pressure come up to 59 psi,
but had not effect on the oil pressure above 180 deg oil temp. pete,
ben, the owner of the new plane and i all agree that their is
something wrong inside this engine. pete as always, is taking care of
the problem.

I have been following this thread and speaking simply from general engine experience, it seems to me that, if increasing the relief pressure with washers under the spring does not raise oil pressure except when cold, then the pump is undersized for the existing bearing clearances in the engine.

If the engine is not otherwise making any noises or showing excessive wear on the bearing journals, then the only solution to this type of problem, short of redimensioning all bearing journals and/or reducing flow to the head, is to install a slightly larger oil pump.

Obviously low oil pressure is a good indicator of excessive bearing wear (given a normal operating temperature) if it started out being the expected pressure.

If it's low to begin with, it's a good way to cause excesive wear.

However, if the oil pressure is OK at cruise and too low before the pump volume gets to be sufficient at the higher speeds, then it may be large enough but only marginally so.

-Mike