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  #121  
Old 09-27-2012, 07:27 AM
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flyenforfun flyenforfun is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post
Vans part number is W-730. Not sure why I remember that, but it's stuck in my memory banks.
Ha, amazing memory
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  #122  
Old 10-01-2012, 05:25 AM
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flyenforfun flyenforfun is offline
 
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Default I JUST CANT GET IT

Well I am looking for my last bit of help here. All issues have been resolved except for my heavy wing. Going to have to dig a little deeper for this one. I have gone through that vans heavy wing analysis document several times and checked everything.. rigging, incidence, etc. Flew with gear leg fairings and wheel pants on and off. Ball is centered. Everything checks out fine.

Had a very heavy left wing. Let go of the stick, ailerons deflect, plane rolls. Figured after checking everything else, it was all due to aileron symmetry. Ended up squeezing right hand aileron. Got a little better. Squeezed more and more until I felt like the trailing edge shouldn't be squeezed anymore. The whole trailing edge has a very noticeably smaller radius. Took off, climbing out, right wing was heavy instead, so I thought yay at least now I can tweak it to center, but then as I leveled off and sped up, the left wing was still heavy. I even tried increasing the radius of the heavy wing aileron per a suggestion from vans.

So now I have a right heavy wing on takeoff, left heavy in cruise, and as soon as I slow down to get into the pattern the right wing is heavy. I have to trim way left, then right, then left every flight.

I am at a loss now. My trailing edges on the ground are all lined up, ive adjusted aileron push rods, flap rods, ended up reverting to original config. Just can't figure this one out, I feel like I have only made it worse. Only things I haven't done... I haven't slotted an aileron bracket and raised or lowered it. I don't know which one to slot and which direction to move it, and they don't seem incorrect. I am willing to try this though.

I also haven't flown without the trim springs. Can you fly without the trim springs? These springs make me worried that I have been fighting a problem that doesn't exist, because when I set the neutral position of the trim on my dynon, I just trimmed it til it felt like center then set that position on the dynon, the green line on the indicator to indicate center is toward the left hand quarter of the line. Hope that makes sense. For example, if I set the trim to "neutral" where it doesn't deflect my ailerons left or right on the ground my indicator looks like:

|....C....:..........|

The C is the green line indicating "neutral". When the trim position is at the C on the ground, the ailerons arent deflected by the springs.

Any thoughts at all?
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Last edited by flyenforfun : 10-01-2012 at 08:52 AM.
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  #123  
Old 10-01-2012, 08:32 AM
Lars Lars is offline
 
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Default trim springs

By trim springs do you mean the optional Vans aileron trim? If so, yeah, remove them. That's an optional system, not one required for flight.
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  #124  
Old 10-01-2012, 08:33 AM
aerhed aerhed is offline
 
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Definitely get rid of the springs and ignore the trim indicator. I'm betting you need to slot the hinge(s). Once you start raising/lowering the ends, I bet you'll see definitive changes. 1/8" up/downs make a big difference.
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  #125  
Old 10-01-2012, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by aerhed View Post
Definitely get rid of the springs and ignore the trim indicator. I'm betting you need to slot the hinge(s). Once you start raising/lowering the ends, I bet you'll see definitive changes. 1/8" up/downs make a big difference.
So just by looking at the things, I cant tell if one is higher than the other.. so what would you suggest trying? Lower the heavy wing aileron? Raise the light wing? Is that how it works?
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  #126  
Old 10-01-2012, 11:51 AM
gasman gasman is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ccsmith51 View Post
Is that shown somewhere on the plans? I bought a -4 and have a heavy right wing. I'd like to start at the beginning and set everything up as mentioned using that jig. But I don't have one, so would like to find out how to get, or make, one. I can't find it in my May, 2011, preview plans.

Thanks,
Chris, I think the 4 uses a profile pattern cut out of plywood. Van's has the pattern on one plans sheet. Or you might find a 6 builder that would loan you the pattern or the plywood jig.

Good luck
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  #127  
Old 10-01-2012, 12:32 PM
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ccsmith51 ccsmith51 is offline
 
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Thanks for the input Warren. I found a procedure in the preview plans that says to align the bell cranks in the proper position (it gives a measurement) and then drill a #40 hole through the bell crank and mounting angles, and use the drill as a locating pin.

I did that and then started the alignment method. I removed the right wing tip and the right aileron tooling holes were in line with the wing rib tooling holes. Good deal, just like it was supposed to be.

Then I removed the left wing tip and found that the left aileron was quite higher than it was supposed to be. It took 3.5 turns on the rod end to get it aligned.

Then I reinstalled the left wing tip and the aileron was right where it was supposed to be in reference to the tip. Then aligned the flap to the aileron. All looked good there. Flap up in proper position, all trailing edges aligned. "This is looking great!" I thought.

Then I put the right wing tip on and as on the left side the aileron was right where it was supposed to be in reference to the tip. So I aligned the flap to the aileron and thgouht "Whoa, what is going on here???" The left flap was down quite a bit in reference to the full up position! So, there must be some twist in the aileron or flap or both. In any case I readjusted the flap so that it is full up and the flap trailing edge is about 3/8" above the aileron trailing edge.

I made some test flights and the right wing heaviness is much less than before. I was thinking that I could drop the right flap a bit, but when I looked at the ailerons in flight, with hands off the stick, the left aileron was flying a bit higher than the wing tip, and the right aileron was flying a bit lower than the wing tip. If I move the stick to the center position to align the ailerons with the tips there is a left roll.

All checking is done with the ball centered.

So, before I mess with the flaps I'd like to get the ailerons to fly in their proper positions. Would squeezing the right aileron, or tapping the left aileron, or both, have an effect on where the ailerons are in flight?

Thanks,
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  #128  
Old 10-03-2012, 10:44 AM
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flyenforfun flyenforfun is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccsmith51 View Post
Thanks for the input Warren. I found a procedure in the preview plans that says to align the bell cranks in the proper position (it gives a measurement) and then drill a #40 hole through the bell crank and mounting angles, and use the drill as a locating pin.

I did that and then started the alignment method. I removed the right wing tip and the right aileron tooling holes were in line with the wing rib tooling holes. Good deal, just like it was supposed to be.

Then I removed the left wing tip and found that the left aileron was quite higher than it was supposed to be. It took 3.5 turns on the rod end to get it aligned.

Then I reinstalled the left wing tip and the aileron was right where it was supposed to be in reference to the tip. Then aligned the flap to the aileron. All looked good there. Flap up in proper position, all trailing edges aligned. "This is looking great!" I thought.

Then I put the right wing tip on and as on the left side the aileron was right where it was supposed to be in reference to the tip. So I aligned the flap to the aileron and thgouht "Whoa, what is going on here???" The left flap was down quite a bit in reference to the full up position! So, there must be some twist in the aileron or flap or both. In any case I readjusted the flap so that it is full up and the flap trailing edge is about 3/8" above the aileron trailing edge.

I made some test flights and the right wing heaviness is much less than before. I was thinking that I could drop the right flap a bit, but when I looked at the ailerons in flight, with hands off the stick, the left aileron was flying a bit higher than the wing tip, and the right aileron was flying a bit lower than the wing tip. If I move the stick to the center position to align the ailerons with the tips there is a left roll.

All checking is done with the ball centered.

So, before I mess with the flaps I'd like to get the ailerons to fly in their proper positions. Would squeezing the right aileron, or tapping the left aileron, or both, have an effect on where the ailerons are in flight?

Thanks,
I wouldn't squeeze the ailerons just yet because it sounds like your problem is a bit different than mine. When I fly straight and level with the stick centered, the plan does not roll, the ball is centered, and my ailerons, flaps, and wing tips are all in trail. When I let go of the stick, my ailerons deflect and my airplane banks. This indicates an aileron symmetry problem.

If I am understanding you correctly, it sounds like you are having a problem with you positioning and adjustments. Van's had told me to make sure that when I stand behind the airplane on the ground, the wing tips, ailerons, and flaps all make a laser line. I would first make sure all of your stuff is adjusted correctly. If you haven't done this yet, take off your wing tips and align the tooling holes in the end wing rib with the tooling holes in your aileron. This puts your aileron in the right spot. Align your flaps to this aileron position as well as your wing tips. If you align the tooling holes on one side of the airplane and your other aileron is high or low you need to adjust the pushrods. Hopefully I am understanding you correctly, but I would eliminate the possibility of adjustments or rigging being the problem before you start changing the shape of your ailerons.

One thing I also recently learned that I wish I did from the beginning is do your heavy wing testing without the trim springs installed. My heavy wing problem became very different once I removed them, I was fighting a problem that didn't exist. Also, try flying without any gear leg fairings or wheel pants to eliminate them as a cause.
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  #129  
Old 10-04-2012, 08:31 AM
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flyenforfun flyenforfun is offline
 
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So after slotting my left had outboard aileron bracket and lowering the aileron, my left heavy wing at cruise speed is gone. I still have the right heavy wing at slow speeds !!

Any ideas? I tried playing with the trailing edges of the ailerons and it just brought back some of the left roll at cruise speeds
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  #130  
Old 10-04-2012, 09:22 AM
Bavafa Bavafa is offline
 
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Location: Sacramento, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccsmith51 View Post
Thanks for the input Warren. I found a procedure in the preview plans that says to align the bell cranks in the proper position (it gives a measurement) and then drill a #40 hole through the bell crank and mounting angles, and use the drill as a locating pin.

I did that and then started the alignment method. I removed the right wing tip and the right aileron tooling holes were in line with the wing rib tooling holes. Good deal, just like it was supposed to be.

Then I removed the left wing tip and found that the left aileron was quite higher than it was supposed to be. It took 3.5 turns on the rod end to get it aligned.

Then I reinstalled the left wing tip and the aileron was right where it was supposed to be in reference to the tip. Then aligned the flap to the aileron. All looked good there. Flap up in proper position, all trailing edges aligned. "This is looking great!" I thought.

Then I put the right wing tip on and as on the left side the aileron was right where it was supposed to be in reference to the tip. So I aligned the flap to the aileron and thgouht "Whoa, what is going on here???" The left flap was down quite a bit in reference to the full up position! So, there must be some twist in the aileron or flap or both. In any case I readjusted the flap so that it is full up and the flap trailing edge is about 3/8" above the aileron trailing edge.

I made some test flights and the right wing heaviness is much less than before. I was thinking that I could drop the right flap a bit, but when I looked at the ailerons in flight, with hands off the stick, the left aileron was flying a bit higher than the wing tip, and the right aileron was flying a bit lower than the wing tip. If I move the stick to the center position to align the ailerons with the tips there is a left roll.

All checking is done with the ball centered.

So, before I mess with the flaps I'd like to get the ailerons to fly in their proper positions. Would squeezing the right aileron, or tapping the left aileron, or both, have an effect on where the ailerons are in flight?

Thanks,
If I understand the last adjustment you made, there are a couple of things to keep in mind.
1- The aileron is set based on the procedure you have just followed, using the tooling hole. In addition and to confirm, you can use a straight edge to confirm that the position of the aileron is in line with the wing (this is just to double check things).
2- Set the flap in line and relation to the aileron, in neutral position. Keep in mind that the flap will be pushed up a bit in the air if you don?t have a stop for it. But it is of little movement and depending on how tightly is set.
3- The wing tips needs to be set in relation to the aileron, again in the neutral position. Often times the wing tip needs to be readjusted by cutting the trailing edge and re-glassing it so it goes in the correct position as there is no adjustment for it during the final assembly. This mod often times is done during the building stage. Also, the wing tip has the lease amount of influence in the plane roll tendency.

So if you are flying and the plane is flying level but you see a bit of up/down aileron (in relation to wing tip), this means that you symmetry is correct but will need to adjust the wing tips, if that is important to you.

I hope these help.
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