Buy vs. have built question

mandm1516 · #1 07-02-2006, 01:37 PM

This may be a topic that gets me beat up on this forum (especially for my first post), but I have to ask. I have decided that I want an RV-4, but at this time in my life, I know there is no way I am going to be able to build one myself. So I have the choice of buying one, or I suppose having someone build it for me. Although my wife has given me the go ahead with finding one, there are a few things I'd like to get settled first--so I'm probably 6 months away from being serious. Having watched barnstormers and the classifieds here for a month or so, I think I can find what I'm looking for but am curious about the pros and cons of buying one already flying (where there may be some level of compromise--not necessarily the panel I want, or paint job, etc), vs having one built.

I just thought about having one built this morning, so I haven't looked in to it enough to know in the world of over the top liability, litigation, regulations, etc if it's even possible.

Anyone out there who can shed some light on the good and bad of both? Maybe starting with cost--can you pay someone to build a 4 with say a 180hp engine, constant speed prop, nice paint, and professional looking interior/panel for the mid $50K range which is where I've seen a few for sale?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and opinions.

Mike

Captain_John · #2 07-02-2006, 01:49 PM

Mike, I am sure you can buy one already built for a reasonable sum. A hired gun would be some loot, I am sure.

OTOH, there is a -4 out here in MA that needs a bit of TLC and could be had in the low $20,000 range. Lemme know if you would like a telephone number.

CJ

Kyle Boatright · #3 07-02-2006, 02:22 PM

The price point on the RV-4 today seems to be that you can buy the same airplane for "X" dollars as you could build for the same money. Add the cost of a hired gun to the equation and buying an already flying example is a slam dunk.

rv6rick · #4 07-02-2006, 02:37 PM

CJ....I'd like the number of the RV4 you mentioned if it's available.

email to: rgray67968@aol.com

or call 740-350-5188
Thanks in advance,
Rick in Ohio

szicree · #5 07-02-2006, 04:45 PM

This is only my opinion and worth exactly what you're paying for it, but I think I'd opt for an already built plane rather than contracting a builder. I really believe that many guys (and gals too, Roberta) build these things as true labors of love, sweating every little detail. We build as if every little thing is going to be scrutinized by other builders, and judging from fly-ins I've attended this is exactly what happens. That's not to say that an experienced builder for hire wouldn't do likewise, but in my own personal experience I've found it hard to find paid labor that will work to such high standards. Think about mechanics, contractors, painters, etc. that you've hired and I'm sure you've had similar experiences. Speaking for myself, I can say that it would take a mountain of money to get me to pour this much heart and soul into a project that I was not going to get to keep. Finally, I'd add that buying a finished plane you can actually look it over before any agreement is reached. With a build for hire, what happens if it's all done and the workmanship is a little dodgy? I say it's a little like adoption versus finding a surrogate mother. I'd rather see the finished product before I sign.

gmcjetpilot · #6 07-02-2006, 05:18 PM

Educate your self.

Try to fly as many RV's as you can, RV-4's if able. So when you find the one you have a point to compare it to.

Even from the back seat you can get a feel, see how it trims out in roll and pitch. Wing heavy? Tell how fast it wants to get off the ground or if the gear shimmies on taxi. You can look over the shoulder and see the power, indicated airspeed, rate of climb and so on. Bring a hand held battery powered GPS.

Because there is no standard like a Piper or Cessna you will see wide variation. I would not be so picky in the engine prop department. RV's perform better than %95 of the general aviation planes anyway. A clean, well built, day/night VFR 150HP, wood prop RV is a very nice flying plane. I can't speak for what flying you want to do or budget. RV's are fun sport planes, especially the RV-4. If you find a IFR, 180 HP, constant speed prop you will pay more than $50,000 realistically. I have seen some nice ones for $60K.

RV-4's are some of the better deals in RV's. RV-6,7,8,9,10's are more popular. You can expect to pay $10k more for a RV-6 than an equivalent RV-4. Why I don't know? SBS seating is more popular. People are bigger now a days (read fat) and the RV-4 is not as roomy as the RV-8. I loved my RV-4.

Keep in mind there's a list of improvements from the oldest kits to the newest or last RV-4 kits. Engine mount firewall fittings, increased elevator skin thickness, longer gear and matching engine mount to name a few.

Like anything buyer beware. Have it checked out thourghouly.

sprucemoose · #7 07-02-2006, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandm1516

This may be a topic that gets me beat up on this forum

Mike,

Since nobody else has taken a swing at you yet, I'll be the first. I'll be gentle though, since it is your first post.

Hiring a "hired gun" to custom build you a RV-4 is blatantly illegal. It runs contrary to the spirit and letter of the law. You do run the (admittedly small) risk that the feds will get wind of what you are doing, and you will end up with a very $$$ pile of metal shaped like an RV-4, which you cannot get licensed. And, most importantly (at least to me) you run the risk of bringing the feds down on all of our heads.

I won't pretend that this kind of thing doesn't go on all the time, and I know that the feds do turn a somewhat blind eye to it. That doesn't mean that they will always continue to do so. As the Epic saga showed us last year, if the line is crossed far enough, the feds can and will step in. In my opinion, the entire homebuilt movement dodged a bullet on that one. We may not always be so lucky.

There, that's the short version. You had plenty of time to duck.

jbDC9 · #8 07-02-2006, 09:23 PM

You might've already seen this one... an RV-4, price reduced to $35K. From the description, it ain't perfect, but the price looks right.

http://global-air.com/global/g06159.htm

Low Pass · #9 07-02-2006, 10:08 PM

It may not be logical, but wouldn't suprise me to assume that some new fed out to save the world might tune in right here and see this thread about hiring someone to build your experimental. Although it's fairly obvious that people build experimentals and sell them right after they're finished, don't advertise the possibility that it may happen with prior arrangement. Honestly, I really don't care about your arrangement and whether or not it happens. But I do care a great deal about my freedom to build, fly and sell experimental airplanes.

The world of experimental (kit) planes is one of the last free, relatively FAA-unmolested areas of aviation. We're free to do about whatever we want and are fairly successful at it.

Call me conservative, or whatever else you want. Just please don't post requests, condone or promote illegal experimental AC building for hire so openly and/or blatantly.

Last, if you've got the money to pay someone to "build" you an airplane, just go buy a new Extra, Yak, Columbia or a nice used experimental. There are plenty out there. I can't afford a new Columbia or Extra and rely on building experimental(s) to have a plane like these. With the feds clamping down, the people who have to build loose.

mandm1516 · #10 07-02-2006, 10:24 PM

Thanks to everyone for your replies--I had a hunch that buying was a much better way to go but just wanted some confirmation/affirmation. Jeff--you didn't take a swing at me, as I mentioned I hadn't looked in to it enough to know any better but did wonder whether it was possible both from a financial standpoint and also a legal one. When I said I might get beat up, I thought it might come from all the people here who have put so much time and energy into their planes--sort of a how dare I consider hiring someone else to do the workfor me.
JBDC9--I have seen that one. It looks good--but for now there is one on barnstormers (when I do a search it comes up right after that one) that has pushed just about all of my buttons so far. http://www.barnstormers.com/listing_...884453orig.jpg As I said, I feel like I need another 6 months or so to get a few things straightened out, get some more tailwheel time, etc before pulling the trigger (had I started 6 months ago this one would probably be on it's way to KSLC).

Anyway, thanks again for everyone's advice. I appreciate this forum and look forward to getting to know more folks online and eventually/hopefully in person.

Mike