|
-
POSTING RULES

-
Donate yearly (please).
-
Advertise in here!
-
Today's Posts
|
Insert Pics
|

08-07-2012, 11:22 AM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lake Country, B.C. Canada
Posts: 2,416
|
|
...can't trust your eyes.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by eh_v8_tor
........Of course this is much easier in a side by side situation where you see the other pilot take the throttles.
 Steve W.
|
Steve, just makes me think of a recent airliner crash where the F.O. I believe held full-back (up) on his side stick throughout the whole incident, and no-one noticed, or acted. Obviously someone pulling the throttles to idle, or holding the yoke or stick against the dash is harder to miss...but throw in an auto-pilot etc. and you're adding more opportunities.
I like the 'bang on the canopy' ( just not MY canopy!!!) or hands above the head, but you have to count on the other guy looking at you, or identifying the sound at that instant.
__________________
Perry Y.
RV-9a - SOLD!....
Lake Country, BC
|

08-10-2012, 02:28 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Plattsville, Ontario
Posts: 59
|
|
Transfer of Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyboy1963
Steve, just makes me think of a recent airliner crash where the F.O. I believe held full-back (up) on his side stick throughout the whole incident, and no-one noticed, or acted. Obviously someone pulling the throttles to idle, or holding the yoke or stick against the dash is harder to miss...but throw in an auto-pilot etc. and you're adding more opportunities.
I like the 'bang on the canopy' ( just not MY canopy!!!) or hands above the head, but you have to count on the other guy looking at you, or identifying the sound at that instant.
|
If you are talking about the airbus over the Atlantic ocean incident. I'm not an airbus guy, but I believe that it's possible for one pilot to pull full back on the airbus's stick while the other stick remains neutral. That is one of many factors in this accident I'm sure. There is no tactile feed back to the other stick as there would be in our simple RV's (and most planes in the world for that matter).
In my earlier post, I'm not talking about two experienced pilots flying together. I'm talking about myself in the back seat of a citabria with the bouncy oleo gear that tends to occillate like a bucking bronco that will only get worse with every bounce. In the front seat is someone who may or may not even gone solo yet or may be a very low time student. Therefore a little context is required.
My example assumes that the student just bounced the airplane badly and isn't reacting appropriately. A loud and clear "I have control" would be answered by a "you have control"... it's really that simple. The transfer of control has to be immediate and positive in this case. Fighting over the controls a few feet off the ground in a low energy state would not brighten your day much. If you are way up high, then I guess there would lots of time to talk about it.
So in that particular circumstance if the student doesn't allow the instructor to take over, then there could be serious consequences. I have heard that there have been cases of students freezing up and locking-up the controls and throttle, but fortunately it's never happened to me.
It requires a good preflight briefing of what is going to happen, and what to expect if things don't go as planned. And yes of course what the signals for transferring control will be; so that it is positive and smooth.... and more importantly safe with no confusion of who is, or is not flying the plane. Lets be safe out there. 
|

08-10-2012, 02:56 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Gilbert AZ
Posts: 414
|
|
How we currently teach it in USAF Pilot Training
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAMPSguy
One thing that has always bugged me is when students are taught to IMMEDIATELY release the controls. I used to get some who would hear "I have the controls" and it was like when the road runner would shoot away and all you saw was a poof. Their hands are then off the controls and they are so scared that they end up yelling the response. In my case these students were Navy/Coast Guard but exclusively Air Force trained in the T-6 for primary. Not knocking the Air Force, but I totally disagree with this, if you let them get into such extremis that they need to "eject" their hands and feet from the controls, you probably let it go too far as an instructor.
My brief explains that the 1st "I/you have controls" is to inform the non flying pilot to come into the controls, and ride along"
2nd "you/I have controls" is to confirm that the non flying pilot is now ready for the execution order, which is the 3rd reply, confirming the actual change of control responsibility. We use the same type of interaction for formation lead changes.
|
I may be qualified to comment on this... The following is direct from AFMAN11-248 19 JANUARY 2011, T-6 PRIMARY FLYING
1.15. Transfer of Aircraft and Systems Control. Only one pilot at a time can fly the aircraft. It is vital for flight safety to clearly establish who is the PF and who is the PNF as fatal accidents have occurred when two pilots attempted to fly the aircraft simultaneously. The PF is responsible for checklist completion and systems operation; however, the PF may task the PNF to operate systems. Because of the importance of proper transfer of aircraft control, the following rules apply: 1.15.1. Transfer of aircraft control: 1.15.1.1. The PF relinquishing control says, ?You have the aircraft.?
1.15.1.2. The PNF assumes control and says, ?I have the aircraft,? and noticeably shakes the control stick. 1.15.1.3. The order may be reversed as the AC always retains the authority to take aircraft control when required. The order of transfer is less important than each crewmember executing his or her role according to the procedures listed. 1.15.1.4. If the AC, as the PNF, says "I have the aircraft" and noticeably shakes the control stick, the PF must immediately relinquish control of the aircraft, and say, "You have the aircraft." This is an example of how the order is reversed, but the roles continue to be executed. 1.15.1.5. Using the exact words is critical to establish proper habit patterns that enhance swift, unambiguous transfer of aircraft control. Do not use other words such as "it" or "jet" in lieu of the term "aircraft" as they can be misunderstood, misheard, and create confusion. 1.15.2. In the event of intercom failure, the PF signals the desire to relinquish aircraft control by smoothly pushing the rudder pedals in a back-and-forth motion, and the PNF assumes control by vigorously shaking the control stick . The pilot relinquishing control raises both hands in the air for the other pilot to see either directly from the RCP or using mirrors from the FCP.
1.15.3. Never relinquish control of the aircraft until the other pilot has positively assumed control of the aircraft (shaken the control stick). 1.15.4. Do not hesitate to relinquish control when directed by the AC. 1.15.5. Immediately query the other crewmember in case of confusion. 1.15.6. The tandem seating setup of T-6 systems can be confusing if not managed properly. It is crucial to coordinate systems use to avoid inadvertent inputs. Systems that require crew coordination include canopy, radio management unit (RMU), global positioning system (GPS), and electronic flight instrument system (EFIS) configuration. The PF controls all of the systems of the aircraft unless a transfer of that system has been clearly communicated between the crewmembers. The PNF should also communicate when transferring control of the system back to the PF.
__________________
Jeremy
ATP, CFI, CFII
RV-7 N424JD KCHD
EAA Tech Counselor
2017 Bronze Lindy
|

08-11-2012, 09:20 AM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 365
|
|
Thanks Jeremy. That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Not sure how big your training squadrons are there in Columbus, but say "Hi" to Keith Carson for me if you see him around.
__________________
Jeff Atkinson
RV-8 #82594 Flying since May 2012
Barrett XP-360, Catto 3-Blade, Dual G3X Touch, GTN-650, VP-X
|
| Thread Tools |
Search this Thread |
|
|
|
| Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:27 AM.
|